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Dr Nippin Anand_The Power of Organizational Learning

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Join us to explore the profound lessons and our understanding of safety in high-risk fields with our special guest, David East. In this episode, he brings his deep expertise in Human & Organizational Performance to discuss critical risks, learning from incidents, and the interconnected factors behind them. Drawing on examples from aviation and his experience in the Royal Australian Air Force, David shares his insights on transitioning to a learning zone, emphasizing that safety is all about learning. Tune in to gain valuable insights!

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Real leaders leave a legacy. They capture the hearts and minds of their teams. Their origin story puts the safety and well-being of their people first. Great companies ubiquitously have safe, yet productive operations. For those companies, safety is an investment, not a cost for the C-suite. It’s a real topic of daily focus. This is the Safety Guru with your host, Eric Michrowski, a globally recognized ops and safety guru, public speaker and author. Are you ready to leave a safety legacy? Your legacy success story begins now. 

Hi, and welcome to the Safety Guru. Today, I’m very excited to have with me David East. He’s an Air Force veteran from the Royal Australian Air Force, as you’re going to hear from his accent very soon, has made a career out of it, but also a huge thought leader in the human factors, human performance space, and hop. So, David, welcome to the show. Very excited to have you with me. 

 Good morning, Eric. Thanks for having me, mate. 

 Great. Let’s start out by your passion in safety. How did it start? Where did your journey begin? 

 Yeah, my background. I joined the Air Force in the mid ’90s as an aircraft technician. I’ve been working around planes my entire career. I worked for 10 years fixing planes. Then I changed over to crew as a flight engineer and a load master on C-130s. Now, my safety journey. It has been an interesting one because when I was young in my early 20s, safety was the furthest from my mind. I don’t know how I didn’t hurt myself more than I ever did. I got through it pretty well, injury-free. But as a young fellow, I didn’t really care too much about safety and just did what I needed to do to comply. It wasn’t until I became an expert That I really started thinking, All right, now I’m in the back of this plane a lot. I have a lot to do with the outcome of this flight, of what we’re doing. I better start paying some attention. But the critical thing that happened to me was I became a human factors instructor, well, facilitator. I was put through the human factors course. Back then it was called CRM, the crew Resource Management. Now we call it NTS, Non-Technical Skills. 

That really got me on the road to safety. It’s all about education. Now, how have I gotten to the point where I’m super passionate about safety? Just realizing some gaps within the workforce. They’re not big gaps. It wasn’t because people didn’t care. I was able to influence people in the safety space and the human factor space, and I enjoyed it. I started my side hustle, and I still do a lot of work within the Air Force around safety. I just find a passion, and it works. 

 One of the things we’ve had several guests come on the show with background in Aviation Air Force. One of the things that I know when we first spoke is you really advocate for a more proactive approach to safety, which I think is so critical. Tell me a little bit more about how we learn from events, but even before an incident happens. 

 Learning from events, that’s really important, isn’t it? It’s the fourth principle of learning and improving is vital. Within defense, everywhere that you go, pretty well has a pretty good safety suite on their software system. Defenses are really good. We have a very good We report everything from the very serious incidents right down to the miners. That safety suite is fantastic. It’s got a lot of data in there. But how do we learn from that? But actually, I From time to time, I have an issue with how we learn from that. Because often what happens is the safety representative within your workplace will normally just send an email. But here’s the critical safety events that have This occurred this month, this quarter, this year. We are supposed to then just read that email and glean the lessons learned from it. I don’t find that as a very good way to learn at all. I think to learn in the safety space, it really is about face-to-face. You’ve got to get face-to-face with people, whether it’s a facilitated session or just having conversations in the crew room with other workers, other people, and just start talking about incidents and see where the conversation goes. 

 That’s where the real learning happens. That, I often find also doesn’t happen as well as it used to, especially around the junior. In defense, we call it we’re all aviators. We run around the junior aviators, that crew room discussion on safety topics just doesn’t happen. We’re generally just learning by osmosis through one or two courses where we learn one or two case studies. And that’s about it. I like to keep the risk conversation alive. Matt Confer from corner industries in the US. He’s coined the term sticky, which is stuff that can kill you. And that’s fantastic. If you go to junior aviators and say, all right, let’s talk about the stuff that can kill you while you’re doing this job, while you’re out there on a Hercules doing an engine change or whatever job it is that you’re doing, what are the risks? What can kill you? A lot of young people, they don’t know. They’re like, oh, I don’t know. You’ve really got to drive that conversation, haven’t you? But once you get them used to those conversations, let’s have a sticky conversation. They understand the risks and they get to own the risks. 

 That helps them learn a whole lot more than an email of the aviation safety accidents that have occurred in the last period. 

 I think one of the things learning, you’ve got a good point that it’s got to be very immersive. It can’t just be an email. One of the things I’ve seen is at least when it is communication, this was in aviation, it’s very targeted to who receives it. If you’re flying a certain type of aircraft and the issue has to do with that certain type of aircraft, those are the people that receive it. Whereas in business, often it’s these mass broadcast, so you get flutter with a lot of things that don’t relate to your job as an example. But the other element is learning from things like the near misses you talked about, some of the little things. In business, I was talking to one audience not too long ago, and we’re just translating it for an aviation, a crash is equivalent. It’s a serious event, just like you would consider a siff event on the ground. At ground level, you’re thinking about serious injuries or fatalities. Is the big thing that could go horribly wrong. But too often people are learning from the cuts, the scrapes, the bruise, fingernails. They’re looking at trends that have no correlation with serious events, and they’re not opening the door to all the other things that may be going. 

 So, they’re not fixing the real issues. 

 It all comes down to, I think if you want to learn from those minor events, you need to understand the controls that are in place and to find out if those controls are effective, I guess, don’t you? Yeah, right. Also, with your point, you talked about how aviation, you might get specific to a specific aircraft type, whereas business, you just get a broad shotgun approach. That’s really interesting because the question is asked, how does this relate to me and how can I relate it to me? That’s a very difficult thing to do. I think we have a very strong reliance on rules and procedures, admin controls. We think that they are the critical controls that are going to save us from a serious incident. I think we also… A lot of organizations, the Air Force, we have a very strong, just culture. 

 Yeah, that’s a key component, right? 

 It’s predominantly no blame, and we try to learn from it, of course, and that’s important. But we still don’t… I was talking about those sticky conversations. We still don’t understand the critical risks and the critical risk controls. We don’t understand why they’re there. If they’re engineering controls, especially, sometimes they’re obvious, but sometimes they’re not. If you’re a brand-new aviator on the flight line and you see a brand-new piece of equipment, you don’t understand why it is built or designed in a particular way. Sometimes because the lessons learned have been built into that vehicle, hopefully, so the critical controls on it work and it makes it simplified. But we need to, from the executive level, top-down management. It’s important. Of course, it’s important. But top-down, they want us to make sure that we’re following rules, which, of course, is important. Those controls are important. But The guys on the floor, they’re going to follow a procedure. Therefore, they’re going to follow the rules, of course. But it’s not until they understand the critical controls and the critical risks. So, when something goes wrong, they’re the ones that have the ideas that can fix that, and they can understand it better. 

 Because if something goes wrong, it’s going to be the worker that’s out there doing the job that’s going to get hurt, isn’t it? We don’t want them to carry that extra risk. We want them to understand it so they can work with it, work around it, and hopefully, fix those that risk, those critical controls. So that next time someone has an accident, hopefully, the outcome is a horrible SIF event or an aircraft crash, hopefully it’s just something minor. When we get the plane on the ground or someone just has a minor injury, and we talk about all these minor events and don’t have a lot of big things to talk about. But that’s a utopian world, isn’t it? 

 Yeah, but it’s something we can strive for. I do believe you can eliminate aviation. You can eliminate serious events. If we look at aviation, I was pulling up some stats in the US several years back, and In the 1960s and 1970s, on commercial aviation, there was roughly one person dying every second to third day. To last 15 years, where only three people in commercial aviation lost their lives. That’s a substantial difference in outcome. If you focus on the right things, you can drive the right bike and it becomes, essentially. 

 I completely agree. You know the aircraft that I predominantly have worked on, the Hercules in Australian Air Force, we have never had We’ve had a fatal accident with him. We’ve been flying him since the late ’50s, early ’60s, I think it’s been with the early. 

 It’s an old plan. We’ve updated the aircraft. 

 Of course. I would hope so. Never had a fatal accident with them, which is a fantastic record. 

 There is a lot of… Obviously, our publication suite, it’s a live document. It’s developed over the years. It brings in live rules. The training is fantastic. We trust it. Another big thing is we trust our aviators to fly them. You might have a junior in their early 20s, a guy, girl in their early 20s flying that plane. We put a lot of trust. That’s the same in all aviation, isn’t it? You train them, you put a lot of trust in them to do the right thing. Aviation is just one of those industries where it’s just done really, really well. 

 Absolutely. You touched briefly on the topic of just culture. Tell me more, because that’s a very key component to get to the near miss reporting so that you can build the learning culture. It’s something that I think a lot of businesses still struggle with because it’s this element of, I need to learn, I understand that, but is there an element of accountability and how do I balance this through just culture? 

 It’s just a word, isn’t it? Just culture. It means a lot. It means that we need to… If something does go wrong, that there is effectively no blame around it, but there also needs to be accountability, and that’s super, super important. 

 That’s the key thing. 

 It is. Blame fixes nothing. Error is normal and blame fixes nothing are the first two principles. And everyone understands that, and everyone can look at them and go, Yeah, that makes sense. But it’s not until you really get into them and try to understand what happens. So, I’m very big on the brain body contract. What happens to a person in their mind and physiologically when something goes wrong and someone points the finger at them, because that hurts. It really does. It wipes down deep. And that’s a core memory that you will keep forever because it brings out an emotion, doesn’t it? A lot of people think that because it’s a no-blame culture, they’re not going to get in trouble. And that’s well as much as far as it’s going to go. But what you get then is you get a lower level of accountability. So, you get people that are just cruising along. They’re just in a happy zone, and they don’t really mind what happens to them. It’s not until you give them… Sure, you’ve got the no blame, but until there’s some motivation, are you motivated to do your job? And guess what? 

 If something does happen, there’s going to be some accountability. Definitely, if you’ve done something wrong, if there’s a violation 100% there’s going to be some accountability. But we need to be accountable for what happens when something does get wrong. And what happens then, if there’s too much accountability and no blame, you have people living in fear of I’m going to work. I don’t want to get in trouble for doing something. But if there’s a healthier level of psychological safety and emotional intelligence around it and a healthier level of motivation and accountability, then what you get, you get yourself up to the top level where you’re really in that learning space. I’m happy to take the hit. I’m happy to put my hand up and say, hey, look, I actually made a mistake there. That was my fault. And this is why I made that mistake. I didn’t follow the procedure. The control was wrong. Whatever led to that mistake happening or whatever the outcome of that mistake was, if it was a bad one, let’s learn from that. But get yourself out of the cruisy zone, get yourself out of the fear zone, and get yourself above all those, and get yourself into that learning zone Where, yeah, I’ll take full responsibility or not necessarily take full responsibility. 

 I’m just a worker. Error is normal. But what was the outcome of that error and what can we learn from it? So that when that error happens again, and it will, probably by me, how do we make sure that no one actually gets hurt by that? And once we’re in that learning zone, you’ve got Then you’ve got a true just culture. It’s important that it’s done correctly. 

 I think one way I lived, somebody was explaining it in a prior episode, is that there’s just culture Sure, it’s about removing blame, but there’s still accountability. Because with the two pilots, there’s very strong accountability on each other that’s built. You touched on CRM. CRM is really about building that accountability, the communication between each other. There’s peer-to-peer accountability that sets in. But the position and length of the choice of words is that there’s still a consequence. But the consequence doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a negative. It may just be We discovered there’s a gap in our training, or maybe you need more training in this particular scenario. We’re going to put you in a simulator with scenarios that are similar around it. You get to walk away and there’s no conversation, essentially. It’s just we want to learn from anything that can happen because when you’re in the air, it’s highly unforgiving if something happens. We learn from it, but there could still be a consequence, just not a negative punishment in the way we normally talk about it. It’s not that we’re avoiding termination or things like that, although it’s much more about the learning that happens there. 

 This episode of the Safety Guru podcast is brought to you by Propulo Consulting, the leading safety and safety culture advisory firm. Whether you are looking to assess your safety culture, develop strategies to level up your safety performance, introduce human performance capabilities, re-energize your BBS program, enhance supervisory safety capabilities, or introduce unique safety leadership training and talent solutions, Propulo has you covered. Visit us at propulo.com. 

 I’ll tell you one thing I got to do which was fantastic. I’ve been an air crew for many years, but for the last three or four years, I’ve been on the ground doing ground-remanded roles. One of those roles was working with the safety management system within the support system of an airfield. We’re talking about the people who load aircraft, aviation, firefighters, aviation refuelers, and the people that run the fuel farm and all the fuel systems throughout the base. We got to introduce some human factors and got to introduce some safety training courses to that workforce, which was fantastic. It was the best job I’ve It was cool. But there was one crew that worked at the fuel farm, which is where we store all the fuel, the jet fuel. The fuel farm at this base, it’s fairly old. It was built in the 1970s when we bought F-111s because we needed a significant amount of fuel to run those things. They’re awesome jets. It started to show its age. Still works, of course, but it was starting to show its age. By me, What I mean started to show its age, a weld would start to leak. 

 It might just be a pinprick leak. They’d have to fix that, for example. The guys that worked there, they lived in fear. Their accountability was really high, and the blame was really high as well. 

 Whenever something wrong- Which is not good. 

 These guys had only worked there for a year or two, we’re getting caned for it. I rolled in with a couple of my colleagues, and we made a learning team, effectively, which was, this is not an investigation. There is no blame. There are no punitive measures to be taken here. We just want to understand what is happening in your workplace. We put it on a whiteboard, and I said, Let’s learning 10 is, what are your issues? We’re not going to talk about solutions. I only want to hear the problems. And of course, I let them have a pretty good whinge. But the outcome was we got a really good list on the whiteboard of some of the real issues that this problem, that This place was facing. Some of them were admin-based, some of them were engineering, etc. And from that, I was able to go to the commanding officer with this list and say, hey, sir, look, this is what is happening at your fuel farm. He goes, okay, I didn’t fully understand it. I knew we had a problem, but I never fully understood it. From there, they were able… Six or eight weeks later, we had the DG Log, the Director General of Logistics. 

 The guy in charge of logistics for the Air Force. The equivalent for America would be like a two-star general for logistics. He came out and they let… Actually, let one of the younger fellows there explain to him some of the issues because he was the one that understood it. He was really nervous, but he did a great job and explained what was going wrong here. He went, Cool. Now I understand it. He helped with funding to help fix it, and they prepared that. A lot of it, actually, they haven’t just They’ve prepared it. They’ve put in a system to rebuild the whole thing anyway because they need more capacity. That’s a classic example of how going into a workforce and saying, we’re not here to punish you. We’re here to learn and understand. The outcome of that was absolutely fantastic. I saw one of those guys a couple of months ago in Emblem when I was up there, and he said, oh, look, what we started back then was fantastic. I’ve been working around this industry for 10 years, and that day that When you came in and started talking to us in a learning fashion was the turning point. 

 That’s what I put out to everyone. It’s just having a conversation and just try to understand the controls, what’s fouling and how you can fix them. 

 So simple yet so powerful. 

 It’s just human interaction face-to-face. It is powerful, isn’t it? 

 How do you shift leaders’ mindsets around this? You talked about this environment that was previously very high accountability, very high blame. How do you shift mindsets around this? 

 That is a good question, Eric. I don’t know. To be honest, I will be completely honest. I haven’t yet had 100% success in shifting a leader’s mindset as an enduring to an enduring level. I will be honest with that. Maybe it’s my personality. But I think the hot principles, I’ve been through the hop principles with a bunch of leaders, and they resonate with them. But it is so easy. It’s human nature to go back to… It’s very easy. We are hardwired to blame people. We are. You just watch any movie throughout all of our history, we are very hardwired to blame people and to hurt people, unfortunately. I don’t know why that is. 

 But it’s also easier, right? Because the last point of failure is a person. Yes, normally. Even if you go precondition right before that failure, then you’ll get to something that’s maybe they were fatigued, they were stressed, which again, you could easily say, Well, you were the one who’s supposed to sleep, as opposed to for me to really understand the chain of causality, how the system factors came in, all the various things that caused this person maybe to be fatigued and make this error, or the gaps in the training, That’s a lot harder. 

 It is. There will always be a human at the end of it, won’t there? Yes, as you said, given the fact that we come up with these systems in our mind, we invent them, we design them, we manage them, We operate them. We are heavily involved in everything. That’s the human nature. I guess when we are hardwired to blame, when we are hardwired to want to find someone to pin this on so it doesn’t come back to them or the C-suite or the executive suite, it’s all about I guess that’s why I like the hot principles, because so many times I’ve been able to go to my management and say, Hang on, now your response to failure really matters. We had a failure this morning, and the way you responded was probably You need some coaching on how to deal with that response better because you didn’t handle it really well, because those people that were involved in that incident or accident, who really had nothing to do with why it happened, but they were the ones that were the last ones to touch it. You actually made them feel pretty bad about that. But having said that, if you’ve got someone… 

 My current boss is actually quite good, a very intelligent person. He’s super intelligent. A lot of the times you’ll find that people who are super smart haven’t got very good social skills. Well, this guy has actually found the way to have pretty good social skills, so it leads his team pretty well. He sets us up with a level of trust, and that’s what it comes down to. He trusts the worker. I work in an office environment, but we plan missions for all of the AMG aircraft, air mobility aircraft, all the transport aircraft. We plan all the missions. There are so many things that can go wrong with the mission, even in our planning phase. He trusts. There might be a brand-new operations officer who’s straight out of training. They do a couple of weeks of training, and they’ve got someone beside them. They’ve got a little wingman to help them out. But he gives them a level of trust that a lot of young people would never have in executing that mission to make sure it goes off. He can make some decisions at 10:00 PM at night when a C17 breaks down in America that other 21-year-olds might freak out about completely. 

 But if something were to go wrong with that, the next morning when he finds out about it, he’s like, Yeah, okay, that happens. That’s completely okay. What can we learn from it? 

 Which is a red response. 

 It’s perfect. But that has been… I introduced the whole principles to him a number of years ago, and I drive them on him. I hold him accountable for those principles. Hey, you said you like these things, and your response to failure matters. And now his response to failure is quite good. It’s excellent because no one feels punitive like measures from that, which is fantastic. So, it’s a lot about you’re The question was, how do you get leaders to really look after their teams, to not want to be the blame and punishment people? It’s just about having a champion that gets in their face all the time and holds them accountable because that is super important. So once again, it comes back to face-to-face communication and relationships, doesn’t it? Often hard to do because often you don’t have access to all of the executive team, do you? So, you’ve got to be the right person, right person, right place, using the right equipment. It really, really helps. And who understands the big picture. And who can be held accountable when something goes wrong. Yeah, that’s important as well. 

 But I think it starts with a level of ownership that’s very strong. To be able to do this, you have to take very strong ownership of the role and responsibilities and also the flaws. I think as well, the element that I’ve seen, unfortunately, in some organizations, they will take something like hop and say, blame fixes nothing, and use it as a transference of blame. Instead of blaming the employee, now I’m blaming the senior leaders, because the senior leaders created the system that allowed it. But it’s not about shifting blame, it’s about learning. That blame fixes nothing is about just let’s understand the full system and all the interdependencies that are connected. 

 I know. It is so funny how you said, they don’t blame that person, but they blame the next level up. We love to find someone to blame them. 

 We love to, yes. Unfortunately, it’s convenient. It solves a lot of issues when you simply blame. But I think the other element is it’s not about absence of accountability because I think that’s one area where I’ve seen a lot of leader’s struggles. I don’t fire people. I remember I had one person I talked to, and he says, Yeah, we have a great safety program. We call it an at-will safety program. You make a mistake, I fire you. That’s the extreme level of blame. Yes, you’re not going to hear about a single thing that went wrong. You’re just going to have calamities after calamities if you take that approach. But you still have accountability. I would argue that the level of safety ownership I’ve seen in aviation is much higher than anywhere else. That comes from a high level of personal accountability and team accountability between the pilots as well. 

 I’ve got a friend who works for a construction company, and she says that… I’ve done a little bit of work with a few companies outside of my own, with my own business as well. Yeah, you see this all the time. But blame and punishment is just everywhere. It’s a thing. It is very challenging to change that mindset from the top down. Whereas from the bottom up, they’re like, Yeah, we love this mindset. This is great. We don’t want to get punished. But it needs to come from the top down, I guess, doesn’t it? It probably needs to be both. But anyway, my friend has been able to convince the executives for her construction company of the hot principles and learning teams and the 4Ds and having sticky conversations. They said, Yeah, cool. We really love what you’re talking about. It resonates with us. Here’s the red carpet. They basically rolled out this massive, long red carpet for her program and said, Yeah, make that happen. We will support you 100%, which is fantastic. Imagine that. If every Hot professional had that treatment, they’d be very, very happy. I track her I talk to her quite often and say, hey, how is it going? 

 Is it actually working? Because, yeah, are the hop principles, are they just a philosophy? Or are they something- They have to be more than that to work. To be meaningful. 

 They absolutely do, Eric. Are they just a philosophy or are they just a set of values? Or is there some real meat in it that is actually beneficial? She says, no, it actually does work. The workers love the approach where they know when the safety person comes in, they’re not going to get in trouble. They’re not going to be talked about all the things that went wrong. She talks about all the things that go right What is working well, and talk about the critical controls which the workers… She has helped the workers understand what isn’t happening right. And they love that approach because there’s no, hey, look, this happens, so don’t do Make sure you wear your proper PPE. They don’t have those conversations because they don’t have to, because they really trust the workers. And that trust works both ways. And the company seems to be doing really well as a result, which is fantastic. 

 That’s cool. David, thank you very much for your thoughts and insights on HOP and some of your experience from aviation in the military. Any closing thoughts for us? 

 I’ll just reiterate the point. If you want to be a good safety leader, just get out face to face, talk to people, understand them, understand the critical controls, understand the critical risks, and help your workers do the same. You’ve got a whole system of safety behind you. You can use that whenever you need to. But if you have that approach, I think you can do better in the safety world. So good luck in doing it. Eric, thanks for your opportunity for doing this today. It’s been good fun. 

 Good. And if somebody wants to get in touch with you, how can they do that? 

 LinkedIn is best by David East. And I’ve got, because there’s a thousand David Easts in the world, mine’s got a little hand emoji beside it, so I stick out. So, feel free to get in touch. I love having these conversations with like-minded folk and also non-like-minded folk who are happy to challenge me and challenge some of these principles because those conversations are always interesting as well. I have drunk some of the cool aid, but it’s not the only way. There are many ways to do safety. This is just the way that works for me. Happy to have those conversations. It’s good fun. 

 Thank you. Safety is about learning. I think that’s the big takeaway. 

 That’s what makes it sexy, Eric. Actually, safety can’t be sexy. Anyway, thanks, buddy. 

Awesome. Thank you so much, David. Really appreciate it. 

 Thank you for listening to The Safety Guru on C-suite Radio. Leave a legacy. Distinguish yourself from the past. Grow your success. Capture the hearts and minds of your teams. Elevate your safety. Like every successful athlete, top leaders continuously invest in their safety leadership with an expert coach to boost safety performance. Begin your journey at execsafetycoach.com. Come back in two weeks for the next episode with your host, Eric Michrowski. This podcast is powered by Propulo Consulting.   

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ABOUT THE GUEST

David East is an accomplished Human Performance, Safety Management System & Leadership Consultant with a passion for enhancing workplace cultures, safety systems and optimising human potential. With extensive experience in multiple industries, he operates CrewFusion, a consultancy offering comprehensive training, facilitation, and advice to organisations seeking to improve cultural, safety & leadership practices across any workplace setting.

David’s expertise lies in developing and maintaining robust Safety Management Systems, and he is particularly specialised in the aviation sector. However, his diverse background also includes successful engagements in construction, emergency services, logistics, and healthcare safety systems. His broad industry knowledge allows him to adapt his skills and insights to meet the unique challenges and requirements of any sector.

While running a successful consultancy business, David continues a career in the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Beginning as an Aircraft Technician, he worked hard to rise through the ranks to become Airmen Aircrew serving as a Caribou Flight Engineer and later as a C130J-30 Hercules Loadmaster. This extensive operational experience provided him with firsthand understanding of the critical importance of safety and human factors in high-pressure environments.

For more information: https://crewfusionteambuilding.com.au/

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