Real leaders leave a legacy. They capture the hearts and minds of their teams. Their origin story puts the safety and well-being of their people first. Great companies ubiquitously have safe, yet productive operations. For those companies, safety is an investment, not a cost for the C-suite. It’s a real topic of daily focus. This is the Safety Guru with your host, Eric Michrowski, a globally recognized ops and safety guru, public speaker, and author. Are you ready to leave a safety legacy? Your legacy success story begins now.

Hi, welcome to the Safety Guru. Today, I’m very excited to have with me, Christian Harris. He is the founder of Slip Safety Services. He’s the author of Prevent Slip Accidents with Slipology, which we’ll talk about soon, as well as a host on his own podcast, A Safety and Risk Success. Christian, very excited to have you with me. Looking forward to our conversation.

Thanks, Eric, and that’s a great introduction. I couldn’t have written it better myself.

Christian! Maybe let’s get started with how you got into safety because you have a very deep personal connection to safety. Maybe let’s start there.

Yeah, sure. If you cast your mind back to 2012, it was the London Olympics, which was a massive event in my country. I live in London now, and I lived in London then as well. This was a time before marriage and before kids. So, Sunday, May the 13th, 2012, was quite a relaxing day, which Sundays aren’t for me any longer. I’ve got two little ones. But we had a bit of a lie in, went and had a nice breakfast from a café around the corner. Then my wife and I, or she was my girlfriend at the time, decided we’d go to this place called Columbia Road flower market, where we bought some flowers, had some lunch, had a nice stroll along the canal. It was a lovely sunny day, having a great Sunday. Headed back home. We were driving. We parked up our car in a Sainsbury’s, which is like a supermarket chain car park in Islington in North London. Went to go into the store and we had to go out onto the road and walk around the corner to get into the store. And then that’s the last thing that I remember for several hours.

So, what happened was a car had basically sped around the corner and turned onto the road that I was on. I was walking down the pavement or the sidewalk, depending on where you are in the world. This car came around the corner too fast, swerved, lost control, mounted the curb, and ran into me. I don’t remember anything about that. I just have a total blackout. But that’s what happened. Then woke up a few hours later in hospital feeling slightly worse for wear.

I’m sure. In Since then, you’ve done a lot of work, particularly around slips trips and falls. So obviously, a strong connection to safety. It’s an interesting topic in that very few people talk about it, at least in my experience, yet it’s a very common cause of injuries in the workplace. Tell me a little bit about some of the contacts around slip, trips, and falls, and then we get into maybe some strategies or some ideas there.

Yeah, absolutely. That incident obviously gave me a passion for safety. When something like that happens to you, you get very interested in safety very quickly, and you want to help avoid that thing happening to other people. I was a management consultant by training. Once I got this passion for safety, I started analytically looking at the world of safety. What I came across was this category called Slips, Trips, and Falls, which was the biggest cause of accidents, injuries, and insurance James, and it was very flat. Road safety, we’ve done well. It’s been improving. A bit of a flat lining now, but broadly speaking, moving in the right direction. I thought to myself, well, look, if I want to make an impact in this world of safety, why not focus on this area, which is the biggest area, and it’s one that nobody so far seems to have mastered, shall we say? That’s what got me interested in this area. You’re right that one of the biggest challenges is everybody knows about it as a risk, but we don’t speak about it enough. We don’t do enough on it. We have lots of misconceptions and poor thinking around it, and therefore We do a pretty good job.

If we were doing a terrible job, we wouldn’t be seeing 30% of accidents. We’d be seeing 70% of accidents. So, I’m not criticizing people to say we’re doing a bad job. Everyone’s doing something. But the real insight, I suppose, is that the difference in time and effort and cost between doing good and great and the outcomes we can achieve are massively exponential. So, with a small amount more investment, we can achieve exponentially better results.

It doesn’t surprise me because I see so many charts that I’ve mentioned, slip, trips, and falls, but very few action plans around what are we going to do around it. Maybe tell me about some of the strategies that you’ve seen work.

Sure. When I started delving into this subject and decoding it, I basically figured out quickly that there were six key drivers as to why somebody might slip and therefore six key areas to work on. I’m happy to run through those if you like.

I love that. Yes.

But at a headline level, what I found is that, and hence the book being called Slipology, it’s about trying to take a more scientific approach. We’re doing a pretty good job doing the basics, shall we say. But how can we go further? Well, we can go further by trying to introduce some more scientific measurement. Therefore, if we can measure those indicators of results, we can look to improve upon them, and therefore we can drive the inputs, and that will help us to get to the outputs. We’ve seen examples of people doing that cross-sectors, where we’ve seen up to an eradication of incidents. I’d never ever promised an eradication, but we normally see at least a halving of incidents and therefore, fewer injuries, fewer claims, much lower costs. It’s all about that scientific approach.

Which makes good sense because, again, the charts I typically see don’t break it down beyond somebody slip, tripped, or fell. You talked about six key drivers. Tell me a little bit about each one because I think that will inform some of the potential interventions.

Sure. It’s an acronym of CHIMES. Otherwise, I talk about tune your chimes to stop slips. C is contamination. If a floor is perfectly clean and perfectly dry, then it’s almost impossible for somebody to slip. What’s clean and what’s dry are open to interpretation a little bit. For example, what did COVID teach us about cleaning? Covid taught us that a surface can look clean but be contaminated. When it comes down to slip resistance, we see lots of floors that look clean, but they’re not very clean. They are contaminated, and therefore the slip resistance is lower than it might otherwise be. That’s one, contamination. H is for heel, so that’s all about footwear. Now, obviously, we can control footwear for members of staff much more readily than for members of the public. But there are situations where organizations will have safety shoes, safety footwear in place, and they perceive them to be slip resistant, but they’re not really slip resistant. Or they might be slip-resistant in their kitchens, but they’re not in other areas. So that would be one thing. Then from the perspective of members of the public, we often rush to blame somebody that slipped by saying, well, did you see what they had on their feet?

The way we should be thinking about this is not blame. It should be, well, what’s reasonable for somebody to be wearing on their feet? If we’re operating a restaurant or a shopping mall or something, then we should expect people to have high heels on, and therefore we should try and mitigate the risk of somebody wearing high heels. Sure.

Makes sense.  

I am individual, so this is the human factors. So, gender and age play a role here. Statistically, if you’re an 80-year-old woman, you are more likely to slip and fall than if you’re a 20-year-old man. You’re also more likely to be hurt more seriously, and therefore that will become a more costly accident. So that’s one part to think about. But the key bit here is all about behavior. So, if we are pushing, pulling, twisting, turning, if we’re carrying, if we’re distracted, if we’re rushing, all these activities will heighten the risk of a slip. Therefore, to what extent can we manage these activities? Again, that’s often easier for members of the staff than members of the public. Of course. M is maintenance, and that splits into three. Change of use. Again, think of COVID. We started walking in areas in buildings that we weren’t walking in before. We started seeing hand sanitizer stations dotted around buildings, and that was introducing risk. Wear and tear are a second thing. If you go to a church, for example, or any old building, you’ll see floors have been down for years. You’ll see wear patterns. That’s going to change the likelihood of slipping.

Then the third area here is cleaning, which is a massive control measure that people can get wrong. When we’re cleaning a floor, we’re typically introducing water or liquid and therefore introducing risk. But also, how well How do we clean a floor can determine the risk. Cleaning, the definition of cleaning is removing a contaminant from a surface. But how often do we see people mopping floors, for example, when they’re not actually removing anything, they’re just spreading stuff around and leaving a Valid point.

Valid point, yes.

Which is going to make the floor more slippery. E is environment. This is obviously the weather, rainfall, condensation, temperature, but it’s also the built environment. So, entrance, matting, steps and stairs, ramps and slopes, lighting, noise levels, all of these things contribute. Then finally, S, the surface, so that’s the floor. Some floors are more slippery than other floors. Some floors can be incredibly slippery, but perfectly suitable depending on where you’re putting them. Other floors can appear to be suitable, but they’re not. When I get invited into an organization and they’re struggling, and I present this CHIMES model to them. They tend to say, firstly, I hadn’t realized there was as much to this as that, and secondly, that they’re only working on maybe one or two of those areas. But when I go in and I meet an organization and they’re doing well, it tends to be the case that they are ticking lots of boxes around all six areas.

Sure. When you talk about footwear, one thing that I learned a little while back is even the standards around what is slip-resistant are not actually measuring the right thing. So essentially, it’s even hard to say which shoe would have or boot would have the better slip resistance. So, tell me a little bit more about how you go about it, because in that case, standard isn’t necessarily getting you the best shoe.

No. I mean, one of the challenges in my area is that there are different standards around the world. So, there are different standards of footwear, different standards of how to measure the slip resistance of a floor, different cleaning standards, etc. It is quite difficult, and it can be quite a minefield. In Europe, we have a European-wide standard. What the HEC, which is the regulator here in the UK have done is they’ve developed their own footwear test, which they would say is much more robust. I tend here in the UK to suggest people to go down that route. Sure. If the regulators developed something impartially, then hopefully it would be pretty good. If we look at floor slip resistance, for example, in Europe, then the prevailing feeling would be that that’s been influenced a bit too much by floor manufacturers, and therefore it’s perhaps a little bit too easy to pass a test than it might be for other types of tests. So, you need to be looking into your local rules, regulations, laws, and standards but also, I guess, having a bit of a beginner’s mind and questioning some of these things a little bit to say, well, is that actually as good as it might seem to be on the face of it?

And so, in your experience, and when you work with an organization to reduce slips, strips, and falls, is it trying to look at each one of these drivers? Are there some that have a bigger impact? Or are you looking more at the data specific to that organization? What have you found to be successful?

Yeah, it’s a Great question. In an ideal world, you would do well in all six areas, and then you’d be having a holistic and robust approach to mitigating the risk. What you do find, though, is in certain circumstances, you can’t control all of them. Let’s think about an Amazon delivery driver, for example, going out and visiting other businesses and other people’s homes and so on and so forth. Lots of those factors aren’t within not only that person’s control, but Amazon’s control problem in this case. If you’ve got some of the six that you can’t control, then I would suggest that you should try and go above and beyond on the ones that you can control. Whereas if you’re operating, let’s say, a manufacturing plant, you can control all six because it’s members of staff only. It’s all within your control. Try and have a consistently high performance across the board. But it is going to be very depending on where you are, what activity you’re undertaking, and that level of control. Yeah.

Because I’ve heard of some examples where, I think it was in the restaurant industry, where one chain focused predominantly on shoes and the quality of the shoes that people are wearing. The other one looked at the surface, the flooring to make sure it was less slips possible. But it strikes me doing a little bit of both would have a bigger impact.

Yeah, absolutely. Better to do both. We always advocate for a holistic approach, and we always Try and get people to figure out how they stand on all six to start with. Then look, we can prioritize based on risk assessment, based on need, based on control. But ideally, you would be trying to do something. In that scenario, you’d absolutely be trying to do something around the flooring, the footwear, and the cleaning of that flooring as a bare minimum. I tend to find that we should start with the floor and how the floor is looked at and maintained as a starting point. Because if you think of it this way, whilst we can all walk on floors that are slippery, so we can all walk on a sheet of ice without slipping, for example, it’s obviously much more difficult to walk on a sheet of ice than on a paving slab. Sure. If we can get the floor right, then we give ourselves half a chance. If we have the floor wrong, then even if we do well in all the other five areas, we’re still going to be struggling to achieve a good outcome. I think focusing on the floor and, of course, the foot, if you can control the foot from a staff perspective, are absolutely the cornerstone approaches of where I recommend people should start.

You talked about the Amazon delivery person, I think a utility worker is people that are constantly outdoors in a different environment, where some of the factors you talked about even just the environment, the weather, aren’t necessarily within their control. What are some of the strategies that work in that context? Because a lot of what I hear is it gets blamed to situational awareness. I did notice there was a dip in the grass or something along those lines. Yeah.

That’s where we must focus more on the individual human behavior and pieces, but also things like the PPE, things like lighting. If you’re a delivery driver or if you’re working on site and it’s in hours of darkness, can we give them some good lighting of some kind, even if it’s a torch or something that they have on their body in some way, shape, form, so they can see a hazard. Awareness is important. You can even go down the route of balance and how to fall, learning from martial arts, how to fall better and protect yourself. There’s lots and lots of things that you can do where you can’t necessarily control all those environmental factors. But again, just go slightly deeper on the things that you can control. In a factory, would I I recommend getting a martial arts instructor in to teach people how to fall? No, I wouldn’t, because I think there, we can mitigate that fall and hopefully prevent that fall. But if people are out and about on mobile on a construction site or railway lines or delivery drivers it might be worth doing that extra effort there because we can’t do other things.

So, we’re still taking a… Overall, we’re putting the same amount of effort in, but we’re just going a little bit deeper in that category.

This episode of the Safety Guru podcast is you by Propulo Consulting, the leading safety and safety culture advisory firm. Whether you are looking to assess your safety culture, develop strategies to level up your safety performance, introduce human performance capabilities, re-energize your BBS program, enhance supervisory safety capabilities, or introduce unique safety leadership training and talent solutions, Propulo has you covered. Visit us at propulo.com. It’s striking that you can have a significant impact on a category that for most is quite large and hasn’t, as you said, shifted in the last several years.

Yeah, you can. That’s across sectors, across environments, even in places like swimming pools or hotel bathrooms and shower trays and bathtubs, where the floor is constantly… It’s designed to be wet, right? A swimming pool is designed to be wet. A bathtub is designed to be wet. It’s only going to be used when it’s wet. So even there, you can have a big impact. I think the challenges are that… Well, there’s a few, but if you haven’t had the incidents, this is a perennial challenge for safety. If you haven’t had the incidents, then why should I focus on this is always going to be one. And with slips, trips, and falls, although it does constitute the biggest cause by far of accidents, injuries, insurance claims, as I said, they can be thinly spread. If you’re managing 100 sites, you might not have any accidents in 10, 20, 30 of those sites. Does that mean that you shouldn’t be doing stuff there? I would say no, because to what extent is that just good luck. To what extent is it under-reporting? We should still be taking a proactive and a risk-based approach to this and trying to be preventative.

It makes really solid sense. I think this is a good segue as well into another topic that I’m quite passionate about, and I know you are as well, is how do you position safety of the C-suite? In a case like what you just described, if I haven’t seen the incident in this plant, why should I invest in it? Logically, it’s just a probabilities game. It’s going to show up at some point in that other location, unless there is a very different hazard because of the way the floor in that other manufacturing environment is designed. But how do you position safety of the C-suite to drive the right impact?

Yeah, a very big perennial challenge, and one that I believe we in the safety profession should be trying to grapple with more often. In no small part because we’ve got AI and other tech, meaning that, in my opinion, our soft skills and our influencing skills are already more and more important, and are only going to get more and more important. It’s these conversations that I think we need to be having. I think I would make it as simple as possible, and I would start with first principles of what do these people care about. If you’re the CEO or if you’re the CFO or financial director, what is it that you care about? What is it that’s going to make you feel that you’re progressing? What’s going to get you your annual bonus? What’s going to get you publicity? What’s going to get you the outcomes that you want as an individual? If we start by thinking, what’s in it for them? Because everyone in the world, their favorite radio station is What’s in it for me, FM. What’s in it for them? What do they want to achieve? Then how can we enable them to achieve those objectives whilst also at the same time achieving our safety objectives.

To me, the biggest linkage that I’ve found that works well is around performance. So, safety drives high performance. And every CEO, every CFO will say they want safety, and safety is our number one priority, and all these other platitudes. Now, some of them believe it, some of them do walk the walk in that area, but lots of people don’t. But in my experience, high-performing team, they absolutely buy into that. They absolutely want that. They will invest in a high-performing team. So, to me, it’s about linking the inputs of safety into what drives performance because I think it’s much easier to sell performance to that board than it is to sell safety. Does that make sense as an approach?

Yeah, it absolutely does. I think it’s something similar when I think about a nuclear where safety is highly embedded. What I found was quite consistent is the message was that, yes, safety matters, and they were highly invested in it, but they looked at every incident that happened as simple as a slip trip. I dropped an object saying, that’s something where we are not operating at our best. It’s not the highest level of performance. It means there’s a gap in our system. Something could obviously have a much bigger consequence. It becomes really this element of high performance, although they were looking at it more in terms of adherence to rules and standards and those types of pieces, which made sense in the nuclear context. But I think that’s where I’ve seen the most success is connecting it to the C-suite, speaking the language of business as opposed to the language of safety.

Yeah. I also think we’ve got to try and get away from this piece around human error. Nobody sets out to cause an accident, have an accident, hurt themselves or hurt other people. Nobody. If we instead think of it around performance, Let’s say we’re in a sales role. We have some days where we’re really on song and we knock it out of the park, and we do well, and we get lots of meetings or we get lots of sales or whatever. We have other days where we don’t do so well. We have accepted that that thing is going to happen. I believe we shouldn’t be looking at that. We should be managing around and accepting that these peaks and troughs will happen because we’re humans, we’re fallible, we’re never going to be perfect, and therefore we need to be looking more about the engineering control the systems, et cetera, the things that are outside the control of the human. Also shining a light on us and looking in the mirror and saying, well, again, nobody creates policies, procedures, systems, processes, thinking that they’re not great. We all think that we’re doing a good job, but just saying, well, could that be a bit better?

Can we improve on that a little bit more? I think one of the things I did six months ago, I did some polls on LinkedIn in a lot of health and safety groups, and I said, how often, when you start a new health and safety role, do you find things that you can improve upon? Always, often, rarely, never. It was something like 85% said always. So, my question back then was, well, if you can always find things to improve upon from other people, are you always checking yourself to see if there’s things you can improve upon instead of putting that challenge back?

I think that’s a great comment and observation, because at the end of the day, to me, safety is about continuous improvement. There’s really no difference. And even when you’re talking about high performance and Teams is an example, a big part of it is same as continuous improvement, you’re getting this muscle reflex of problem solving. If you’re doing it effectively. In that scenario, there should always be a better way to check the policy. Are you speaking to the frontline team members? Are you getting their input? It can be a very engaging organization as well that you’re building when you’re seeking that input as opposed to pushing rules and standards and expecting a different outcome.

Yeah. No, I fully agree with that. And again, it goes back to those soft skills. It’s the empathy, the active listening. These are the fields that we should be playing on. These are the causes that we should be focusing our time and effort on, trying to improve, to be more effective in our roles, in my opinion.

Absolutely. I think these are great observations, but it’s really… You also brought the linkage back to sales. It is about selling, but selling not just about, here’s a new rule we need to implement, but selling what’s the difference we’re trying to do to the organization How is it going to help?

Yeah, and going back to what’s in it for them. You’re not going to get the shop floor staff, if you’re in an industry where there’s a shop floor staff, to do something if they don’t see the benefit to themselves. Again, I think that’s where high performance can come in. It’s not about keeping you safer because they don’t think something bad is going to happen to them anyway. It’s about actually enabling you to do your job better and be more productive and get a better review and so on and so forth. Really understanding what people are seeking to achieve and being an enabler and not a blocker is one key thing. The other thing I’d really like to draw out is we’ve got to be better at speaking the language of business, which is the language of numbers. We’ve got to figure out how we can put together a return on investment business case, and that is how we can unlock more investment and funding by convincing, influencing, persuading the powers that be that if we spend a dollar on this, we’re going to get $5 or $10 or $20 back. One way or another, that could be by reducing cost of accidents, it could be by reducing insurance premiums, it could be by improving productivity, it could be by reducing staff attrition.  

Because staff are feeling happier, they don’t leave, and therefore you save on training costs and other things. There’s a plethora of ways that our work in safety can help our business. We’re just going to be better at understanding that and then playing that back and selling that to the board.

I think the other element I talk about in this space is ultimately driving a great safety culture is driving a good business culture, good operation culture, and so driving the linkage. But if you go into an organization and you, I want to change the culture to become more efficient, nobody’s going to come on board, nobody’s going to love the idea. But if you’re driving against a goal of safety, people are not going to resist it. But ultimately, a tight operation that’s well run. If you look a lot of the drivers of safety culture, it’s engaged employees that are putting their discretionary effort to drive improvements. All these things drive a better culture, but there’s a rallying cry if you’re trying to drive safety culture. The other one, I would say, is customer service. If you’re in a customer service environment, can also be that rallying cry because nobody’s going to fight. So no, I want a crappy customer yelling at me every day. Those are two good drivers of change.

I like that. That was the great thing about the famous Alcoa case study, wasn’t it? Let’s lead with safety because safety is something that everybody can buy into, and therefore, it is a rallying cause that will get people emotive and typically, to get people to act and change, you need to get them emotive about something. That’s where the… Although I just said we need to be speaking the language of business to get people to change their behaviors, at that grassroots shop floor level, talking about numbers to them is not going to make that difference. In most cases, it needs to be something a bit more emotive. There’s an interesting case study that I could share with you about business outcomes and customer service, which you just mentioned, which I think is relevant. This was in the leisure industry, an operator of swimming pools. They had about 150 sites, and they were getting about 30% of their insurance claims were from slips, and that equated to about one claim per week. We worked with them over about 18 months, and they managed to drive that down to 8% of claims, and it was one per month.

So quite a big, from 50-ish to 10-ish claims. But what was interesting was, going back to that piece around chimes, what they were working on was the floors, their cleaning and keeping the floors as safe as possible for their members who were going in the showers and the pool sides and so on and so forth. Now, what they found was by investing their time and effort in making their floors safer, they were also making them much cleaner. The biggest the source of members leaving gyms is cleanliness. Makes sense. What they found was they had a massive, as well as the savings, the profit they generated from the reduction in risk, they had a massive uplift in net promoter score, member feedback. They saw fewer members leaving, and they saw an increase in their ability to sell memberships as well. They had a massive profit benefit from this focus on safety, and that’s a great example, tying it all together.

I think that’s the point you’re making around talking the language of business, connecting the dots. That’s not where a safety professional normally will spend their time in saying, well, how has the net promoter score change? But there could be some connections if the people you’re injuring or the public in general, a threat to follow. So, love the title of your book, Slipology. So, tell me a little bit more about your book. It’s available on Amazon. It’s on the best seller list. So, tell me a little bit about why somebody should pick up Slipology.

So, the first thing I’d say is one of the big challenges I get is slips, trips, and falls. So that’s simple. And my response to that is, well, I must be the best writer in the world then because I’ve managed to write 50-odd thousand words about something that’s so simple. Basically, it goes through That whole Chimes model in much more detail, there’s a five-step method that you can go through to step by step to reduce your risk. And it starts with better understanding and diagnostic of where you are and goes all the way through to being able to prove in evidence what you’re doing to enable you to show the internal stakeholders, the insurance company, the regulators, and so on and so forth, all of those third parties as well, that you’re doing what you say you’re going to do and that you’re managing those inputs well. There are lots and lots of case studies and examples, both from the perspective of positive things like the one I shared, but also where things have gone wrong. Speaking about some of the serious incidents that I’ve had to investigate, like fatalities and serious head injuries and so on because of slips and learning the lessons from those.

Just trying to make it accessible, but also engaging. We know it’s not the sexiest topic. I’ve tried to inject some personality into it, tried to make it story-driven, insight-led, and make it accessible and engaging, but also enough detail in there that it’s actually useful. We’ve had some good reviews so far. As you say, it got number one safety book on Amazon, number one insurance book on Amazon, from the Kindle Edition, the paperback edition. By the time this podcast goes out, it’s probably out. It wasn’t out straight away because it took a bit of time to get all that sorted, but that will be available around the world as well. If you’re interested in doing more and just, like I said earlier, going from good to great in this area, then I’d encourage you to pick up a copy.

I was watching on your quite active on LinkedIn, you also have some good examples of floors and some of the items you described in terms of what’s clean versus not clean and how you can actually make it much more slip resistant. So, a lot of good illustrations on how you can drive the change.

Exactly. I think bringing it to life is really important. It sounds ironic to say it on a podcast, but a lot of communication is in the visual. So, when you’re talking to somebody, I think it’s like 30% is what they say and 70% is nonverbal communication. And a picture is worth a thousand words. So, the more you can show people rather than telling them, obviously, the more beneficial that is. There are all sorts I put on LinkedIn. I’ve got a very funny video which I share occasionally showing a yellow sign in a supermarket and basically people stumbling over it and knocking it over. Just showing that, these are not all they’re cracked up to be. There are loads of stuff, and just trying to make it engage.

Definitely. Well, thank you so much, Christian, for joining me today, for sharing your insights, both in terms of how to address slips, trips, falls, but also in terms of how you communicate, connect the dots for the C-suite to be able to drive this positive change. So, thank you, Christian.

Thanks, Eric. Enjoyed it.

Thank you for listening to The Safety Guru on C-suite Radio. Leave a legacy. Distinguish yourself from the past. Grow your success. Capture the hearts and minds of your teams. Elevate your safety. Like every successful athlete, top leaders continuously invest in their safety leadership with an expert coach to boost safety performance. Begin your journey at execsafetycoach.com. Come back in two weeks for the next episode with your host, Eric Michrowski. This podcast is powered by Propulo Consulting.