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Real leaders leave a legacy. They capture the hearts and minds of their teams. Their origin story puts the safety and wellbeing of their people first. Great companies ubiquitously have safe yet productive operations. For those companies, safety is an investment, not a cost for the C-suite. It’s a real topic of daily focus. This is The Safety Guru with your host, Eric Michrowski, a globally recognized ops and safety guru, public speaker, and author. Are you ready to leave a safety legacy? Your legacy success story begins now.

Hi and welcome to The Safety Guru. Today, I’m very excited to have with me Dr. Nicholas Weatherly. He’s a CEO of Deliberate Coaching International. He’s also a professor at Endicott College. And let’s get started. Really happy to have you with me on the show today. Tell me a little bit about your background and how you started in the safety space.

Yeah, really appreciate you having me on. Big fan of your, of your show. So yeah, appreciate the opportunity. So, my background in safety, so I’m a behavior analyst by training. I got my undergraduate through PhD in applied behavior analysis applied to organizations. So, for the past about 20 years or so, I’ve been focused on researching behavior patterns, understanding why people do what they do. Especially in high-risk environments. You know, we work with organizations all over the world to set up cultures and safe practices. So, my father worked in injection molding, and that was the kind of the— so when I was an undergraduate, so I always saw his work and the evolution of safety practices in his work and lack thereof. So that was my first kind of dabble into industrial safety. He’d always bring me with him to his shop. And then I did some assessments in injection molding when I was in college, uh, just to kind of get my feet wet there. Cause I was comfortable with the industry, really liked safety work, started doing some work in hospitals and, uh, clinical settings in government and kind of moved into you know, a lot of energy spaces, everything from nuclear to oil sands and natural gas, you know, and then some construction spaces.

Sure.

So, so yeah, that’s kind of been my safety, safety journey. You know, working with other fields, you know, I’m, you know, I’m there just to help kind of identify and build patterns of behavior to help build safety culture. So, so yeah, that’s why I love so much about it. I could be at a different industry any, any given day, and I love working in safety and safety leadership. So yeah, that’s a little bit about how I, how I got here.

Sounds excellent. And a lot of the work you do is in the coaching space, same as the name of the organization you work with. I’d love to explore the topic of importance of coaching, and maybe we start around what is coaching, because too often you hear the words, I’m going to coach you, but it’s a negative because it’s performance management. But this is not the context we’re talking about, right?

Yeah, great question. So, there’s a bunch of different types of coaching that are out there. And I just want to preface that our version of coaching is specifically behavioral coaching. And I, I get a lot of value out of different coaching models and not all of them have the same, what we kind of talk about as form and function, you know, what coaching looks like and then the purpose of coaching. And the purpose of our coaching model— and, uh, Dr. Paul Gavoni and I developed, uh, deliberate coaching approach. We have a few books out on deliberate coaching. We use the science of behavior, behavior analysis, as the foundation of our behavior-based coaching model. And the purpose of our coaching is to build habits, to essentially to help people become good observers of their behavior. And their impact so that way they’re engaging in the safe path, the ethical path, the mission-aligned, safety-aligned path, not just because they have to, but because it works for them. Sure. Uh, and so that’s why we focus on coaching interactions. We focus on very person-centered. It is, uh, very driven on what is important to the individual worker. What, uh, uh, supporting, setting them up for success, supporting progress along the way, making sure that they’re not in this kind of fear-based environment, that they’re seeing what’s working for them.

So that’s the purpose of our coaching is really kind of a hands-on field coaching. We do remote coaching work as well, but, uh, really, you know, getting out there with them and helping them see what’s working, what’s not working. And, you know, from an organizational perspective, it’s, if we can, if we can make the individual worker’s life better, it’s going to ultimately trickle to the organization. It’s going to make their life better as well. So, it’s not just about, you know, doing this because the boss says this or because it’s good for the organization. It is, but, uh, we want to make sure that we can make their lives easier to show them that, you know, you don’t have to kind of. Cut corners and do all these other things in order to kind of get the outcomes that you want. So that’s what coaching means for us, setting up people for success, not spending all of our time on training and retraining and signage and more signage, right? But setting them up for success and then making sure that they get the support on the job when they need it. So that’s the critical piece for us.

So, so I like one of the things you were talking about in terms of— I think those are actually your words— um, the safer path can be the best path. So how do I bring those two together? Because often when it comes to shortcuts or drift is we start thinking that a more convenient path is the better path.

Yes, yes, 100%. And that’s, that’s why, uh, you know, one of the, the, the center pieces of what I do is really just acknowledging that, you know, people do what they do because it works for them. You know, we don’t have to blame them. We look at the systems, and it might not work for the organization. It might not work for their peers or clients or whomever, but it’s working for them. If not, they wouldn’t be doing it. So that’s why we want to, you know, show them that, you know, there’s a number of different ways of getting results. What I always talk about with my clients is, you know, there’s a number of different ways of getting results. We get results by focusing on the most valuable part of any organization, which are the people, right? And really supporting the people and showing them that, all right, this, you know, change is hard. Change results in a lot of error. And I want to be able to help them find some quick wins, help them find an easy path, help them, give them the resources to make them more fluent in what they need to do.

So that way it’s, you know what? I can actually get my job done, get my job done better, and still be safe. You know, help me get to that point. And that’s why it’s such a— I enjoyed, you know, this individualized, you know, tiered coaching system that works from frontline leaders all the way through as high as I can get.

So, yeah, it’s not— it’s not like we said before, it’s not coaching as performance management. It’s coaching to get better at what we do.

Yes. Yes. Though when I do coach action plans with people, we help them identify things they want, things that are working for them that they want to enhance, things that aren’t working for them that are barriers in their environment. What do they need from their boss? What do they need from colleagues and their direct reports? And just, you know, and I always tell them, you know, what, what will make your life better? You know, and let’s just start there. They pick the goals, we work down the barriers, and then we track progress along the way, you know, really making sure that we’re reinforcing there, their progress, not waiting for them just to be perfect at the end, and just kind of helping them get the tools they need to be successful. And, uh, you know, very, very, uh, proactive and, and, and positive approach. So that way, you know, as you know better than anybody, you know, people freeze up in, in environments of fear, you know, when they’re just on their tips. And you don’t want people doing that in safety. So, I want them feeling comfortable talking about barriers and, and what’s working.

So that’s why I love coaching so much. It’s, it’s, uh, it, it really helps. You can, you know, meet people where they are, and I love that.

So, so tell me a little bit about how you develop that coaching skill set, because that’s the key. It’s, it’s not about Nick showing up and coaching thousands of people. How do you get leaders to become really good coaches? Um, just like any sports team, you’ve never seen a sports team without a coach.

The starting point, you know, again, you can attest to this, you know, often when I come in, I’m, you know, the 8th consultant that they’ve seen. I’m just the different flavor of the month. And, uh, and I completely, you know, I completely get that. You know, the people who hire me are significant levels above the people where I want to be working, you know? So, they’re, they didn’t hire me, their boss’s boss hired me. So, they have no idea. They’re just meeting with me because they have to. Uh, so one of the first things that I want to do is just really identify, as I mentioned, just things that will help them, and then let’s just start there. Focus on getting some quick wins, things that get some momentum going, so they can just see value in the process, and so they’re meeting with me again, practicing what I preach, not just because they have to, but because they’re actually seeing some value in it. Sure. You know, that’s my ultimate goal. And so, we start from there, and we really kind of build it up systematically. The, the first thing that I’ll start with is, you know, as the behavior person, my focus is on none of my stuff works if leaders aren’t interacting with folks.

Of course, you know, there are barriers. You know, sometimes if you’re in a big mine, it could take 2 hours to get from one direct report to another. So, one of the first things that we work on is we have to find ways for you to interact with your direct reports. You know, that’s the first barrier, because if not, I can preach to them and train them on all these other things.

No impact.

No impact. There’s going to— they’re just going to think That’s adorable, Nick. I really appreciate you thinking that’s going to work. And then they’ll leave and ignore me, wait for the other consultant to come in. And so, I really focus on that, breaking down barriers for the interactions. Once they start, you know, being able to interact in any way they can, then we start fostering the quality of those interactions and really trying to get them to see the value of the interactions that they’re having, helping their direct reports see the value of the interactions. And just meet with them a few times a month. I meet with their leaders also that are in the coaching program a few times a month. We have about quarterly meetings where, where if I’m coaching a frontline leader, we’re meeting with the frontline leader and their boss at least quarterly just to kind of check in to see how things are going, make sure everybody’s seeing what’s working. Because they need to be supporting each other. And yeah, we just kind of work from there. You know, it’s really just about individualizing it and helping them see that, you know, is this working for you?

And to be like, I’m on, I’ll be honest, dude, like this is not working for me at all. Like, all right, well, we got to tweak some stuff. We got to break down some of these walls. So.

Sure. And can you walk me through an example or a couple of examples of how this comes to life in an organization? And starts shifting culture ultimately?

Yeah, that’s a great, it’s a great question. I have an example and it’s, it’s, I was, I was working for a, a larger mine that brought, that had a bunch of external consultants, and they got some senior leadership, new senior leadership. And they said, I’ll be honest, I have no idea what any of you do. How you work together. We’re wasting a lot of money on you. So, they flew us all up to talk about, to give presentations on what you do. And, uh, the, there were, you know, the process safety people, there were the people focusing on training. There were people who were doing kind of what they called like group coaching or something like that, which is more like, was more like classroom-based coaching. Or, uh, there were people, there were the auditors, you know, people working on new, uh, new tech and things like that. And, and then I went up there and then I talked about, uh, I talked about the field coaching and the, the behavior-based aspect of working with individual leaders. And there’s this consultant in the back, this very nice, very nice lady. And, and she raised her hand and in the most condescending consulting voice you can think of, she said, so you like help people wear their seatbelts?

And they all laughed and laughed. And, and I said, I said, well, yeah, you know, if that’s part of it. I said, you know, as we’re talking 3 levels ahead of these people spending months talking without them being involved, and even when they are involved, they’re just being talked at. Sure. They still have to show up at 6 o’clock in the morning and work in a very at-risk situation. And they’re all being ignored. You know, they’re there. They don’t know how they’re being evaluated. So, they don’t know how they’re being judged for promotion and for, for raises. They’re being evaluated by people who have probably rarely seen them work, you know, and then while they’re waiting for all these things to trickle down, nothing’s getting done. They’re taking survey after survey and all these types of things. So, while all this stuff is happening, they need help. You know, somebody needs to go to them and say like, hey, you know, what can we do to help you tomorrow?

Sure. 

It’s like, like, let’s do this tomorrow. And, um, and that’s what I love about what I do is that, is you, you know, I’m not an expert in any of these areas. My, I’m just the behavior person. That’s what I’m here for. They’re the expert in what they do. I just help them get alignment with behavior and results, break down barriers, get momentum, build habits. And the— and what I told them was, you know, at the time we had worked with about, uh, you know, and colleagues of mine, we had worked with about 500 or so individual leaders. And so, what I said is that, you know, we have about 500 or so individual leaders that we’ve worked with so far. Each of those leaders had to identify at least 3 priorities in terms of, uh, you know, behaviors and impact that they want to focus on, right? Uh, things that are important to them. Each of those behaviors often had sub behaviors that we had to build up as part of it. And then they take those and then working with the leaders, they’re doing the same thing with their direct reports. So, they’re working on those own, their own behaviors, building those habits and those sub behaviors and then moving along.

So, if you take that, if you take 500+ leaders with 3+ behaviors, each one trickling down to their direct reports, like that is what demonstrable culture change looks like. You know, we’re changing culture one behavior at a time, you know, impacting these patterns of behavior. And it’s like, you know, so you could talk about culture change from an abstract level, but that is, you know, that is mathematically how you can really get demonstrable culture change while yes, helping people just be safe on a day-to-day basis. You know, so that I like that example because it started out very condescending, but it was a good teachable moment. It was a good opportunity to talk about, you know, sometimes we forget the human in these safety conversations.

We often forget there’s a human. In that, in the context, right? And so, I like what you’re saying in terms of one behavior at a time. I often use the analogy of the movie Any Given Sunday, inch by inch, right? In terms of that’s how you win is every inch, and it takes, you win inch by inch. And so very much aligned in that standpoint. The other piece that struck me from what you were talking about before is You talked briefly about habit development, um, with, with those leaders. Tell me more about how you’re building habits.

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Uh, yes. So, the main foundation of the habit development process is the, the coaching interaction, and we focus on brief frequent, consistent coaching interactions using open-ended questions.

Sure.

And the idea of this is that, as you, as you talked about, kind of inch by inch, everybody’s very busy as, as, as it is. And there, as I mentioned, being the different flavor of the month, they’re rolling out, they’re still rolling out old consultant strategies and they’re waiting for me to leave so they can roll out new ones. So, so my big thing is they’re always busy as it is. So, but, you know, from a scientific standpoint, the research shows that if you’re going to shape behavior and accelerate learning, you need to follow up with them. You need to show that, help them see what’s working. You need positive reinforcement to support their progress along the way. And that’s how you can keep going. So that can’t be done randomly, and it can’t just be done, oh, I’m just going to check in once a month, sit down and go over 15 things. So, we need, we need those interactions and we need frequent interactions and follow-through if we are going to, you know, shape performance.

Sure.

If you want to have frequent interactions in a very busy day, they must be brief because they don’t have a whole lot of time.

Yeah. 

And then if those brief interactions are going to be effective, they have to be concise. So that’s kind of the foundation of let’s just maximize. You’ve got like 1, 2, 3 minutes to have a conversation with somebody. And we want to kind of not give them a fish, help them, you know, learn how to fish, you know? So, we might go up and just in passing, or maybe this is something that we worked with them on the day before and they’re having a hard time avoiding stepping into the line of fire. And we walk by and we’re like, hey, quick, I saw you step into the line of fire while you were adjusting that valve.

Sure.

And they’re like, hey, I was just trying to, you know, fix it quickly. I get that. Let’s walk through, you know, what are some of the risks, you know, that you, you know, put yourself in danger and other people around you, you know, and they, you know, talk a little bit about, and then we just have a quick conversation, you know, what’s the safe expectations that we can, we can work on here. If they don’t know that, help them find the safe expectations. If they don’t understand the reason for that rule, help them see the reason for that rule. Uh, what can I do to help you to break down this barrier? And just get them talking about, you know, I didn’t notice that, or I didn’t see this, or I didn’t notice that this is what, uh, this is what’s working and this is what’s not working. You know, just having a quick interaction so that way by the end of it they’re like, I see what I did, I see how to notice if I’m doing this well or not, and I see why this is important. And if you can get that done with some good open-ended questions, then after a while they’re doing this not just to avoid you, they’re like, I’m actually This is working for me.

Like, I’m not only like, I feel less nervous on the job because I’m safe. You know, I have fewer near misses, you know, going on right now and I’m getting the job done. I’m getting the job done quickly. So, you’re just using those good open-ended questions so that way over time they’re not, you know, just waiting for your feedback. The feedback is good. It’s in your praise is good. But they’re doing it because they see the value in it. And that’s what we talk about as, you know, building habits. It’s just like if you’re doing it, if you’re going to the gym, you start going to the gym, you’re not seeing any results. But after a while, you know, you’re going to go to the gym because like, I actually feel better and I’m fitting into my clothes better. And they’re doing it because they— it actually works for them. And that’s what we’re kind of shooting for.

Absolutely. I really like what you’re saying is really, it’s about the conversation. It’s about the coaching interaction. And I think what sometimes on the behavior side people miss is they became obsessed with a form and a tick list. And then, they automated tick lists with like 180 different things to go look for. But it actually has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with the conversation, which could be a coaching conversation like you illustrated, or like you alluded to before, could be a reinforcement recognition. Hey, I noticed you’ve changed. This seems to be working well for you. So that recognition piece or the coaching to me is really the crux of this.

Yeah, that’s well said. And that’s exactly it. It’s that conversation, it can be fast. It can, you know, one of the, you know, I view it like this where an individual got promoted to management because ideally, they’re really good at what they’re doing.

Sure.

You know, and they’re really good at that frontline job. And so, they get promoted and, you know, and I encourage my clients to do this, and I encourage your listeners to do this. If one of your direct reports has a really crappy Tuesday and then they have a really good Wednesday, you know, things aren’t going wrong and, you know, they’re happy and there, you know, I was like, just go up and ask them what, what’s the difference between Tuesday and Wednesday? And if they can’t tell you the difference and the, and the critical things that they did differently, then you can’t expect them to replicate that. But that’s the, that’s one of the jobs of a leader. Like the leader might know that, you know, through their observations that I know the specific thing that you did differently from Tuesday to Wednesday was what you did pre-shift. And how you talk to so-and-so pre-shift. And that was the critical thing that I saw. And then, but you don’t tell them that, you know, you go up to them and say, hey, today’s going well. Like, what’s, what’s going on, man? What’s going differently? And they say, well, you know, you know, we got fewer trucks down.

Well, that’s true, but like, what specifically are you doing so well today? And help them see that. And they’re like, huh, that’s right. I’m going to keep doing that more. But it can be a quick, you know, just a quick pass-by conversation. And just get them chatting a little bit, help them see it, and move on.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, I want to end with one last topic. It’s this element of behavior in the context of HOP, right? So, HOP we hear about a lot lately. A lot of value from a systems thinking, from a broader view of what’s the impact. Tell me how the two fit together, because I believe that they should be linked. And I think some purists on the HOP side would say no. But tell me a little bit about your perspective on how behavior and HOP connect.

Yeah, of course. This is something that I’ve admired about the work that you do, because I do think you have a good collaborative perspective in how— and which is what we need in safety. We don’t have we don’t have the luxury of focusing too much on competing safety approaches. And my cop-out, the luxury of me as that condescending consultant, made it very clear is I’m just the behavior person, just the behavior guy. I just help people implement stuff. Right. You know, and that’s the same thing with things like HOP where it’s, you know, they— HOP has a as a strong philosophical foundation. Good principles, principles that are shared with both in behavior analysis and other areas in terms of systems drive behavior and, you know, blame doesn’t fix anything and you have to, you know, seek to understand. You know, you see that, you know, you see that a lot and, and people like it, you know, and anytime I see anything that people like, I always want to reverse engineer it and figure out what they like about it. And HOP has, you know, good components there. The, uh, so in the end of the day, whether it’s to me, it’s, it’s, it’s the exact same thing as an organization has their set of values, right?

They need somebody to help them implement their values.

Sure.

Uh, that’s where the behavior piece comes in. You know, Pete, you know, you’re going to implement HOP, you’re going to implement operational discipline. Those strategies need people to implement that strategy.

Sure.

Uh, so that’s where the behavior piece comes in, you know, where my job is simply to use our science. Our science tells us replicable how to build performance, how to understand systems, and if you, uh, you know, how to positively reinforce things, how to shape things, how to provide good positive and constructive feedback. And that’s just based on, you know, our science and the, to play devil’s advocate, the one thing that I will say with Hop arguments is behavior-based safety is a, is a term that gets thrown around a lot. And, uh, so you can have company A that has their IP labeled behavior-based safety. Company B has a different IP labeled behavior-based safety, but I always equate it to You know, when, you know, Ford has a certain way they build cars. Sure. GM has a certain way they build cars. They use the exact same science to build those cars, but then they build their own IP around that science.

Sure.

And that’s, that’s my thing is that my, my goal is just, I just focus on the science of behavior and implementing the science of behavior. I have my own IP that I’ve built based on the science of behavior, and people can critique my IP, but you only critique science with more science. So that’s why I was like to separate. If you don’t like somebody’s behavior-based safety approach and you think it conflicts with HOP, then that’s a valid argument. What I try to get people to pump the brakes on is, you know, the— that we, we can still collaborate because if you need to get performance improvement in your organization and you want people to implement HOP, you’re using the same science as everybody else is using. You know, you’re using shaping and pinpointing and reinforcement and all these types of things. You’re using the exact same science that’s out there. Uh, you’re just, uh, helping to implement this HOP strategy. So, I understand where some people, you know, I don’t like this behavior-based approach, but that’s where I see people fitting in, if you will.

Yeah, and I think you, you said it at the, at the onset as well, it’s about people. There are people doing process that are— that can get into harm’s way. And forgetting that the human can get into harm’s way and whether or not it matters, I think, is, is very dangerous. And I think that when you forget about that element, and I would say every executive I know in a high-performing organization has a coach, an executive coach. Either it’s been assigned to them by the organization, or they sought their own coach because they recognize that, hey, if I can get better at what I do, it improves my performance. And unfortunately, I think you’re right on the behavior-based safety side. Some people have created the art of the checklist, and I would say it’s even probably worse now with, um, technology because technology has enabled that I can now create lots of dashboards and have 180, 250 different tick boxes, and then people are measured on how many tick boxes they’ve done. But what you’re talking about is a coaching conversation, and you would coach your kids. You wouldn’t just say— don’t coach your kids.

The context will drive whatever shows up. There’s still behavior, and you’re still trying to drive them down a path. And so, to me, they’re, they’re very compatible. Obviously, there are programs that incompatible with, I would argue, even science. There are programs that have just become checklists with no tomorrow and goals and metrics that drive the opposite.

Yeah, that’s, you know, well said. And that’s, you know, you— I, I think you hit the nail on the head where it’s, you’ll see one example where people will use goal setting poorly, and then so you’ll have a faction that’ll say So I’m against all goal setting. You have one people that— another somebody comes in and says, I use checklists poorly. So, then I’m against all checklists. And then the same thing, you have one, you know, say I used, I used behavior-based safety, use behavior-based safety poorly. So, I’m against all behavior-based safety. But then when you do that, the danger in that— and I’ve had this conversation with clients. I actually had a HOP team that I was working with and won’t get into all the details, but they kind of led the meeting and said, I’ll be honest, they said, I’m just against the behavioral approach. Just, they just were very honest with it. And I said, okay, well, let’s walk through like, what, what do you, what’s your problem with my implementation plan versus their implementation plan? And we, after we had a conversation, they, they finally realized that, uh, you know, they were, they were throwing out all the, the basics of science, you know, and they, they, you know, they, they don’t want to reinforce.

They don’t want to shape performance. They don’t want to track. They don’t want to provide feedback. All these types of things, anything that they lumped to do with, quote, behavior-based safety. Sure. And then the conclusion they had at the end was, can we— how about, how about our compromise be we roll out a company-wide initiative that we can, we can do a behavioral approach, but we don’t want managers using the word behavior. And she’s like, you know, it was whatever, you know, just like the fact that you get down to such minutia where it’s like, I’ll, I’ll give you this, but I want the B word to be out of this. Like, okay, if you don’t want managers to talk about behavior, managing behavior, okay, like call it whatever you want, but let’s just again focus on the human. Like we’re all here to help the same, the same people. So, but yeah, that I think everything fits together. It’s just a matter of there’s so much different IP out there and, uh, and you get a bad taste in your mouth with something. And my wife always hates when I bring up this example because I work from home and she hears me talk about this all the time, but it’s, you know, I, I implement strategy just like I would implement hop. And I tell my clients this because again, I’m flavor of the month. You know, you, you see, you throw a ball in the air, and it comes down because of gravity. Like, that’s just the science. How you choose to use that in your business is up to you.

You see behavior occurring, there’s a science behind why behavior occurs. How you choose to use that science is up to you, but you don’t throw away gravity because you don’t like how Ford builds a car. You don’t throw away behavior science because you don’t like how somebody is implementing behavior-based safety. So that’s where I feel like there’s detriment in the argument, if you will.

Makes sense. Uh, you’ve written a great article on this, uh, in terms of how behavior and HOP can work together. Um, and then, um, tell me a little bit about the books you’ve written because you’ve authored, co-authored some books, and also, uh, your website if somebody wants to get in touch with you to continue the conversation and explore how they can create good coaching within the organization to improve safety and ultimately their safety culture.

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. So, my company is Deliberate Coaching International, and so you can go to deliberatecoaching.org and access, you know, resources and anything that you need there. I’ve got videos. You can see the services that we provide. We have 3 books on deliberate coaching. The first 2 were written for education, uh, for, uh, and then the third book we released last year that is written for broader business and industry. It’s because the co-author of the book was a former client of mine and he worked in education, working in, in discipline. So that’s where the idea kind of started, where we need, uh, we need a way to support the educators in a way that fits within the constraints of an educational model. So, we built the first coaching model around that. And then, but I do most of my work or all of my work in industry.

Sure.

And so, we built the last version of the book to apply to kind of a general business and industry standpoint. So, but yeah, I’d love to have, continue the conversation with anybody who would like to. And I just appreciate you starting this conversation.

So excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining the show, Nic.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for listening to The Safety Guru on C-suite Radio. Leave a legacy. Distinguish yourself from the past. Grow your success. Capture the hearts and minds of your teams. Elevate your safety. Like every successful athlete, top leaders continuously invest in their safety leadership with an expert coach to boost safety performance. Begin your journey at execsafetycoach.com. Come back in two weeks for the next episode with your host, Eric Michrowski. This podcast is powered by Propulo Consulting.