Real leaders leave a legacy. They capture the hearts and minds of their teams. Their origin story puts the safety and well-being of their people first. Great companies ubiquitously have safe, yet productive operations. For those companies, safety is an investment, not a cost for the C-suite. It’s a real topic of daily focus. This is the Safety Guru with your host, Eric Michrowski, a globally recognized ops and safety guru, public speaker and author. Are you ready to leave a safety legacy? Your legacy success story begins now.

Hi, and welcome to the Safety Guru. Today, I’m very excited to have with me Patrizia Cassaniti. She’s an international keynote speaker and a director and founder of Touch by Christopher Foundation. Patricia, welcome to the show. Very excited to have you with me today.

Eric, I’m very honored to be on your podcast. Thank you for having here today.

Absolutely. So why don’t we start with Christopher’s story? Because it’s quite touching.

Yes. So, I’ll start off pretty much in the beginning of Christopher’s life. Christopher was my second son. I have three beautiful boys, and Christopher was my middle. But there’s a special story behind Christopher’s birth. When I gave birth to Christopher, when I got to the hospital, there was no heartbeat. So, they thought that Christopher was actually going to be stillborn. But when he was born, he was screaming. Everything was fine. And even the pediatricians and the obstetricians were going, what on Earth happened? We don’t understand because there was definitely no heartbeat there. Christopher was born on the 27th of March 2003. Sorry, 2001. And I brought him home on the first of April around lunchtime. And when I reflected at the time when he died, he actually died on the first of April around lunchtime, 18 years later. When Christopher was born, obviously, thinking before I even went in to have him, with an emergency Caesar that I wasn’t going to have a child. So, for me, he was always a miracle child right from the beginning, from the moment he was born. He was very special throughout his whole life with family. A lot of people were drawn to him.

A happy, very happy person, never angry, always smiling, and was truly the light. Every time he would walk in any room, and as they say, a smile, he always smiled and made everyone so happy. So, he was my angel. He was my angel on Earth, and now he’s my angel for real. And growing up, my boys were very boys, very much typical boys. And in 2017, Christopher finished year 10, and he decided he didn’t want to go on to further his education in the last two years that we normally have. In Australia, we got to Year 12. He said, Mom, I want to get into construction. At the time, I was working as a coffee lady. I had my own coffee van, like a mobile one, and I would go around to all different sites and provide coffees, and I would provide lunches, smoker to all the workers. I got to know a lot of the workers personally, and I asked the form workers on that specific site to see whether they would give Christopher a trial, and they agreed straight away. The next day, when he finished his year 10, I had He did him up in his PPE, had his white card ready, which is the white card is what allows you to be able to work on job sites and high-risk work.

He came with me 5: 30 in the first morning and started his trial and absolutely loved it. Loved the camaraderie. He loved the outside, loved the job. Everyone on that side absolutely loved him because of his kind nature, the way he was. A lot of people were drawn to him. His bosses would come up to me to the coffee van, and they would say to me, Trisha, I don’t know what you’ve done, but he’s not your typical 18-year-old. He’s the best apprentice we’ve ever had. He truly made me proud, really did. A lot of trades would also come up to me, say, If Christopher decides to change, to do a different job, please send him our way because we’d love to have him as an apprentice. That’s the type of kid Christopher was, not just at work, but at home as well. Very helpful, very kind, beautiful person. On the 27th of March, like Actually, before his birthday, about a month before his birthday, we do a lot of water skiing. We used to borrow a boat to get onto the water. I was just sick and tired of seeing my kids on their Xboxes all the time and in their dark rooms.

I grew up water skiing. I said to my husband, I said, we really got to get these kids out. We started borrowing somebody’s boat and getting onto the water and teaching our kids how to water ski. In the first year and a half of Christopher’s working life, he had saved all this money and then went out and bought himself a boat. So absolutely proud of himself. It was about a month before he died. So unfortunately, we didn’t get to use the boat, probably put in the water once or twice before he died. So, it’s quite heartbreaking. And about five years ago, just before Christmas, that boat got stolen. But coming leading up to His birthday on the 27th of March of that year, where he had just bought himself a boat, he was already up in the clouds thinking, Wow. He’s not even turned 18, and he’s already got a massive wakeboard boat. As he turned 18, it was a Wednesday morning, 27th. We get into the van as per normal, go to work at the coffee van, but I hid a cake inside the van. I had everyone’s coffee done. Everyone went off to work, and I grabbed the cake, and I went into his lunchroom, and I called his boss and said, Go gets Christopher.

It’s his birthday today. So, they went and got him. But you can only imagine when he walked through those lunchroom doors and saw his mother with a great big cake, he was absolutely mortified. He thought, Oh, my God, mom. I said, what are you doing? You can’t do this. He goes; I’m working on a job site. I’m never going to live this down. I looked at him, I said, But you’re 18. I said, we have to celebrate. I can tell you now, it was a day that I never lived down. I can tell you now. That very first day, he also had loan papers ready because he wanted to buy a car that he’d put aside that was owned by one of the steelworkers that was on site. He had just bought himself a brand-new car and was selling his car. So, Christopher approached him, he says, Mate, I’ve just bought a boat. I’ve spent all my money. And can you wait until I turn 18 so that I can actually take this loan out to buy your car? Because I need a car now. And the guy looked at him and said, Are you sure?

What if you can’t get a loan? He goes, Then I’ve got this car, and I’ve got to keep it for you. He says, oh, no, please, please do. So, he did. Christopher had his loan approved that very morning. He bought the car, picked it up on the Friday, happy as Larry. Oh, my God. He was so happy. Then Saturday, he drove himself to work for the first time in his own car. That afternoon, when he came home, we celebrated his 18th birthday with family and friends. But the whole night was spent outside in the car, up and down the street, planning what he’s going to do to the car, and the things he’s going to put on it, and the places he was going to take it to because it was a high lux four-wheel drive, so you can take it on adventures. Then on the Sunday, he gets up, he looks at me and he goes, Mom, I’m so happy because now I’ve got my car to tow my boat. But there’s one more thing I’d like to do. I thought, Oh, my God, what’s that? Mom, I want my car to be fully sick.

I just looked at him and went, What? He I said, fully sick is very expensive. Now, the word fully sick is a car that has been done up to the max. new tires, new wheels, new snorkel, all these things to make this car look amazing. I looked at him and I said, In time. I said, you’ve just spent all your money on a boat. You’ve now bought a car on loan, and you need to save some money. He says, Yeah, I know. I said, Jim, tomorrow, I’m not coming to work with you. You can go. You’ve got your own car. Now, I’m going to stay home and clean up after his birthday. Monday morning, he wakes himself up, gets in the car, drives to work. At 12:20 PM, a nine-story scaffold that was two bays wide, collapses and crushes him to death. Everything Christopher aspired for, everything, gone. All because of a five-minute complacent decision that was made that took him for life. It breaks my heart because Christopher never got to experience life as an adult. He never even got the chance to have his first beer at the pub with his mates.

And his whole life taken from him over a choice, over a decision that should never have ever been made. And that decision was to remove to move every single tie that holds a scaffold to the building on a nine-story scaffold.

Unbelievable.

Yeah. It was just absolutely insane. And not only that, but the builder also decided to lift with a crane two pallets on every single level of that scaffold, making it overloaded by 18. 9 tons.

Wow, 18. 9 tons. That’s crazy. Yeah, 18. 9 tons. So, the choices and decisions made on that day were detrimental. There wasn’t even a mistake. It was all due to getting the job done. Two weeks prior, there was an Alamac there that was removed because it was costing too much money for the company to keep it there. And because they had a crane in front of that building that they had to put the bricks on the balconies, they decided they’ll use a crane to lift the bricks on top. The hardest thing is that Christopher and Carla, his supervisor, were actually working through lunch because as farmworkers, all they were doing was they were next to the scaffold, they weren’t even on it. They were forming up a planter box which had to be poured that afternoon. The place where that planter box was situated was actually an exclusion zone, so they shouldn’t even be there. But because they were working through lunch and everyone was in the lunchrooms, the builder said, just get it done. Just get it done now because everyone’s in their lunchrooms, no one’s going to disturb you. Get done. But two brick layers had just finished their lunch, and they stepped onto the ninth floor of that scaffold seconds before it actually collapsed.

It was a 26-year-old and a 64-year-old. A 26-year-old was the one that actually felt it move away from the building when he grabbed a 64-year-old man and pushed him onto the balcony ledge. And the whole scaffold has collapsed from underneath and then crashed in, Christopher and Khaled. Prior to the scaffold actually collapsing, there was scaffolders standing in front of it with their leading hand, absolutely mortified of the load that was on there, that they actually said, we need to stop the job. We need to get everybody off the podium now and remove everybody and get those bricks off the scaffold. But it was the actual leading hand that had that she’ll be right moment to say, It’s okay. We’ve already organized a forklift to take those bricks off the scaffold and onto the balcony ledge soon. Well, that soon didn’t come soon and there were 250 workers that worked at this site. And I can tell you know that’s 250 lives that have been changed so drastically. Because when tragedy like these hits, it doesn’t affect just the person that has been injured or died and their families. It affects everybody, coworkers, managers, the business, everything.

Over choices and decisions that were made that weren’t an accident. They’re incidents waiting to happen because of complacent decisions that are made that lead up to them. The way my son died was horrific. Absolutely horrific. I will never, ever accept what happened. This is why I do what I do. To go around workplaces. I do expos, whatever it takes for me to get in front of as many workers as I can to shift that complacent mindset, give them the courage to always speak up because no one should ever go to work and die. My son survived it for 20 minutes, and then he suffocated to death. And in that 20 minute, his supervisor, who was also crushed, and his injuries are so horrific that he wishes he died with Christopher. But he held Christopher’s hand for those 20 minutes, and he said, Trish, it’s not my pain. It’s not the fact that I can’t sleep anymore. The worst part of my life and living every single day, is hearing your son scream out your name, and there was nothing that I could do. This is so heartbreaking because it affects so many families over those incidents.

This one incident that has affected the company, it has affected the decision makers who made those decisions and choices, and the whole workers that were there that witnessed it. It’s just horrific. Absolutely horrific.

It’s a horrible tragedy. And story that really, like you said, this should never have happened. There’s no reason there’s so many signs that this was not okay from removing the ties to overloading it to working in an area that nobody should have been in. One of the themes that you bring up with audiences is this element that we’re all humans and also this element of needing to walk with workers. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Yes. So, when it comes to going to work, we got to understand that we spend most of our living time at work. Our coworkers, everyone at work is like family, okay?

Right.

Even as an owner, CEO, manager, it’s still a job, okay? It is still a job for them because they still have family at home waiting as a worker, it is a job. It’s a job for everybody for us to do, but we all must do it safely. We’re not robots, and I say this all the time. A lot of people, it doesn’t matter where you are in the It’s a shame. If we all come together and work together and listen to each other, things will synergistically work. When I say walk with the workers, it’s not about walking the talk or doing what you say as a manager or a leader. Everyone has safety protocols put in place. Everyone has to do the right things at all times. We have to provide workers with a safe working environment at all times. In the end, I always say it’s the worker that makes the last decision. They are the ones in the co-face, and they’re the ones doing the job. They are the experts. And as managers, they need to respect that. They need to respect that they are the expert at what they are doing. Sure.

Managers give the job and workers do it. So, communication is key. We can’t remove the human factor. We are going towards AI at the moment as well. So, a lot of things is done in AI. We’ve got to remember that AI has no emotions. It doesn’t know when someone is fatigued. Keep that human factor when it comes to high-risk work at all times. And when as a manager, the best thing I can say is walk with the workers because we are human. And no manager ever wants to have the task of having an incident happen on their watch and the task to have to go to someone’s house, knock on the door to let them know that their loved ones are coming home.

Right.

And unfortunately, a lot of managers have that hierarchy feel of, I’m your boss, you do what as I say. I’m not understanding if someone’s being put in danger and something happens, it actually affects them as well.

Of course.

The trauma, when an incident like this happens, it does affect you mentally. And you take this home, so it affects your families as well. So, let’s all be… Let’s understand, yeah, you might have that hierarchy, you might have that leadership role, but you also have to walk with workers to see what they are doing and listen to them. Listen to what they’re saying when they’re speaking up to say, I don’t feel right. But I also encourage workers to always speak up when something isn’t right, to stop convincing themselves that it is, because that is where tragedy leads, is as soon as we have that she’ll be right moment. I’ve done this a thousand times before. Oh, Jeff did it the other day, and it worked. Why shouldn’t it work for me? We can’t live on luck. We can’t live on having They’re locked behind us because one day it’s going to pinch. And those pinch points are like black snakes. They just strike. And when they strike, it’s You can’t go back. You can’t fix it.

The lead had the chance, heard from team members saying, doesn’t look right. And that’s a perfect example of what you’re talking about in terms of when people were Is speak up, which is already a beautiful thing because as you said, it doesn’t always happen. We don’t always get people speaking up the way we want to. But here they did. Didn’t feel right. There’s at least three things that were not right that day. But this element of it’ll be okay. I think you said she’ll be right. That’s very, very dangerous to not listen to people speaking up like this.

And can you imagine their lives today? They’ll never be the same. And I do feel for them because I know it’s not just me, myself, my husband, and my children that are suffering from this. I do believe that the people who made those choices and decisions on that day that caused the scaffold to collapse, lying their bed, staring at the ceiling saying, I should have, I could have. Well, I should have, I could have does not save lives. We must listen to each other and put human life, never risk human life or injury for any job. Agreed. And it’s just not on because in the end, it’s a job. We’re all a number. Even as a leader, you’re just a number. And you get replaced Because a job gets done with or without you. But family can never replace you. If you’re mentally scarred by something, your whole life changes, even as a leader. And you take that home with you. Your family can’t replace you because your mental health declines when an incident like this happens. So, choices and decisions is what we must know, recognize when we are being complacent. That is when we have to sit there and think, why did I say that to myself?

Why did I say she’ll be right? Why did I say, I’ve done this a thousand times before? It is then that we have to stop and evaluate.

Before. And I mean, I take through my journey and through my speaking engagements with workers, I take workers and managers on a journey with me to make them understand what it feels like to be in a tragedy. I show a video of the incident. I’ve created a reenactment of the whole day; from the moment my son gets up to moment that he dies. And then it’s followed by a real video of the aftermath depicting, obviously, the trauma of those 250 workers that come to try and rescue the sun. Now, that journey is in my hope that I’m the only tragedy they ever get to see to shift that mindset of them understanding the next time they have she’ll be right moment that they to really stop. Because unless you’ve been through tragedy or have witnessed tragedy, safety will never be in the forefront of your mind. And that is what I try to do through my speaking is to bring people on that journey and allowing them to understand that we are all priceless and we all have people waiting for us at home.

Right.

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Another thing I want to touch on is you talked about the pressure that was on the site from a financial standpoint, and this element of some form of production pressure shows up in many different incidents. It’s often a precursor for mistakes, for people to overlook things. And you made an interesting observation where we were initially talking about how in construction, there’s always some form of pressure. But you can control it because some job sites are able to control, they’re still able to deliver, and you don’t get these types of incidents. And in others, it permeates the entire site that we’re fouling behind. We need to catch up, and everybody starts making trade-offs. Tell me a little bit about how, from what you’ve seen, you can deal better with production pressure in a job site.

So, when it comes to time and money, as human beings, we lose that human factor because we are under that pressure of getting the stuff done so that we can get it done in time. And this is where things become robotics. Things, choices and decisions that are made aren’t based on safety anymore because they just have to get done. Sure. A lot of problems are that when you’re working outside, we have to deal with weather, we have to deal with rain, we have to deal with stops where they’re uncontrollable. These problems, unfortunately, do not add on to the end date. No one says that… We’ve had a whole week of rain where we’ve not been able to do anything. We need to add another week to the end date so that we can catch up. But that end date doesn’t ever change. Everything becomes time and money. We need to hurry. As soon as you start saying, we need to hurry, get this done, and everybody works on top of each other, things start happening, and you lose control. When you lose control of a situation, you’re not only just putting workers and yourself at risk, but you’re actually putting the business at risk.

Because when an incident happens, the business suffers, and so do the people. So, there is no point There’s no point in trying to push something that is inevitable. There’s no point. We need to start having maybe legislations, laws in place that says that if we have a big weather event or a natural disaster that has stopped us from working for a significant amount of time, that that time needs to be added to the end date, which never gets done. There’s always you come to the end date and people are going, oh, you’re going to have to pay extra because you’ve gone a day over. And you got to pay extra every single day that you go over. Of course, that’s going to put a pressure on each individual, workers, managers, the big guy is pushing, come on, we got to get this job done because we need to get paid. But what is the point? What is the point if something does happen and you die? Where’s the money going to go? It’s not yours. You’re not here. Or if you’re injured, what’s the money going to do for you? And as a business, you lose your business at times, depending on the size of your business.

An incident like this, you can shut shop and just say, That’s it. That’s it for me. And you could have been working on this job on your business for years and years and years. And it gets taken down within a matter of seconds.

In this case, the job site was closed for three months after.

It cost them millions, millions and millions. For what? A job? Seriously? If they just did the right thing, if they made those right choices and not stick to the problem of saying, she’ll be right, and understand that there are human beings that are involved, this would never have happened. Those buildings would have still been here, Christopher would still be here, and 250 workers wouldn’t be affected mentally.

I’d say the production pressure also; there’s a lot that can be done in terms of how an organization bids or prices or prepare us for a job. Obviously, it’s a competitive environment. So as long as somebody goes lower, that introduces new problems. But if people are realistic about timelines, we know storms are going to happen. We know it’s just going to be rain, there’s going to be weather environment. But it’s also how the leaders show up, because I’ve been to job sites, construction sites, where you sense the pressure. Everybody knows that you’re behind. And I’ve gone to other job sites that are equally behind, and people are just like, we’re going to do it right. It is what it is. We can’t change the outcome. We’re behind. We’re going to do the right thing. And so how the leaders show up, the leaders can still stress about it in the boardroom, but not bring it to the crew, to the crowd, to the There’s many different ways because it can be very different from one side to the other. Correct.

And this is where communication is very important. Ask the workers, what can we do to make things a little bit easier if there is that time pressure. Don’t put more pressure on them. Involve workers to make that communication and actually speak to the leaders of something that they can do to make better. When I go on sites and speak to workers, I’ll get someone say, I can’t do my job because I’ve got the brick layers on top of me doing something else, and I’m scared they’re going to drop a brick on me, so I’m not going to work here. And then when time starts to get underneath and people are losing that time, they start putting people on top of each other.

Which is what happened here. 

And the planning Yeah, the planning goes out the window. All the planning that is done prior goes out the window because of time management and money. Because they’re saying, we’re losing money. It’s taking too long. Okay, now let’s just put all these workers together, get it done all at once in one day when there is a process. Everything has a process. Everything has protocols. Certain workers need to finish before another worker steps in to continue. And when those time and pressures get involved, things go pear shape. And the only way to do this is communicate with the workers. Make them understand what’s happening. Let them be part of that communication because they know best.

Make sure they have a voice, right?

Yes. They know best. They are the experts. Some CEOs, some bosses, some managers feel like as though They are the experts, but they’re really not. That’s the reason why they employ workers with the expertise to get the job done. Otherwise, they would do it themselves. It’s about understanding the worth, the worth of the worker, and the worker understanding the worth of the manager being able to tell them what they have to do. But understand that if the worker says it’s not right, it just isn’t.

You have to listen to it.

It just isn’t. Stop convincing yourself that it is.

And that’s where the leaders set the stage, because it’s also multiple levels of leaders. You talked about the CEO, but multiple levels of leaders, but they have to set the stage in, my expectation is to walk with the workers, understand, listen, seek input, and make sure that they make the right choice, because ultimately, they have a huge amount of agency of influence around how the frontline workers show up and the decisions they make.

A hundred I’ve been to so many pre-starts where I watch the leaders do the pre-start with a piece of paper in front of their face and just read. Okay? It’s horrible. They’ll say, Conquer Concrete as you are today in building C, you have to get this done and this done, and then they go on to the brick layers, brick layers, you got to do the balconies today. They’re not even looking up. They’re just reading. I always believe as a pre-start and as a leader, you don’t read just off a piece of paper. You acknowledge the workers in the room. If you’re talking about the concertos, say, hey, concertos, where are you? Put your hand up. Get their attention because I can tell you now, every pre-start, workers aren’t in full attention of what the leader is saying. They’re too busy on their phones having their breakfast or whatever it is. As a leader, call out the concrete as they’re in the room and say, Concrete is where are you? Put your hand up. As soon as they put their hand up, they’ve been acknowledged by the leader that they’re in the room and then talk to them.

Speak to them, even though you may read it, read their task, but then look up to make sure that they’ve acknowledged that task, and then connect with them and then ask the question, Is there anything we can do for you that you felt that what I’ve just given you may not work. Can you please elaborate?

I like that.

Okay. And then 100%, that’s the human factor, right?

But it’s also touching on what you said. People have best laid plans. When you start having production deadlines, challenges, and so forth, in this particular case, they did plans that nobody would have conceived doing it at the front end, hopefully. And then somehow, they just execute without even questioning, saying, Have I missed something? Because Every person makes mistakes, including leaders.

A hundred %. And if we all understand each other, how much better would our workplace be? And how much better is your workplace going to flow when your worker feels important and belongs? Because they are acknowledged. Do not just read a task to someone. Acknowledge them before you go on to the next task in the next trade. And ask the question, just say, is there anything that I’ve missed? Or is there anything you need today to make your job better?

Another part I want to touch on is one of the pieces you talk about is the importance of stopping and speaking up. And I would say the leaders also have a role in this. In this particular case, two people stopped and spoke up. And so, there’s also an element of how we reinforce when that happens so that we encourage that this is what we want to see and listen to people. But that’s a hugely important piece on the job side because nobody is able to know everything. Nobody is able to wrap their head around everything and see every potential hazard. A lot of research shows that we miss half the hazards in front of us, even if we’re experienced.

It’s because we are too busy. It’s because we are trying to get the job done. We’ve been told to get it done. This is a time You have to do it in. You don’t even ask the questions anymore. We don’t even flinch when we’re being complacent. We don’t have that anymore. We forget, and we’ve been so good now at actually ignoring our natural instincts that tell us we’re in danger because we are so busy. We have butterflies in our stomach, which is our second brain. And those butterflies are an instinct, a natural instinct to give you a warning that something isn’t right. Yet we convince it, we squash it down, and don’t even think about it, go, no, I’ve just been told I got to get this job done. I’m sure it’s fine. I’ve got to get done. Then stuff happens. And when stuff happens and you really think about it and no one, unfortunately, realize the reason why until it’s too late that you think, It’s just a job. That’s all it is. It’s just a job. Why are you risking your life or injury to get the job done?

For what? For what? Speak up. 

Say no. Because you get replaced. The job gets done with or without you. Your family is waiting for you at home. And the only reason we go to work, doesn’t matter where you are in the chain, is for ourselves and our family. Full stop. That is the only reason why we work. No one chooses to be there. No one is fist-pumping that they’re at work. No matter where you are, we all We all have to go there. We don’t choose to be there. So, the key here is we all must respect, speak up, and always, always listen. Walk with each other.

Patricia, you have a very powerful story, a very, very tragic story around Christopher and what happened that day. You’ve used it from an advocacy standpoint to drive positive change from a legislative standpoint in Australia. And then the other part you touched on briefly is you try to really bring this to life with stories, videos, really connect with the audience. Tell me a little bit about both, so both the advocacy side and some of the results on that front, but also how you make this very real when you speak to employees in different organizations around the world.

So, the way I do that is obviously through my videos, the reenactment. I only produced a reenactment this year. It took me six years to get it done because it’s my It’s also my reality. I relive my son’s death every single day in the hope that I can shift mindset in every single worker. I can’t change the world. I’m not here to change the world. I’m here to change the individual that I impact through my story, through my videos, visual videos that actually show you the tragedy. If what I do doesn’t impact, I don’t know what will. I really don’t Because I don’t sugarcoat my son’s death. I tell it as it is. The reality of it hits home to every individual to make them realize why. What are they doing? Why are they risking life to get a job done? It’s not worth it. That is the key thing for me. With the legislation, obviously, after Christopher died, it took three and a half years for me to actually figure out and really find out what happened my son because I wasn’t privileged enough to know.

Even as his mom.

As his mom, I wasn’t privileged to know all the details because I had to go through court. So, it was sealed. And no, I was allowed to know until the court date. So, me sitting down in a courtroom and listening to the judge. And prior to the court starting, I was taken into a room by the prosecutor to give me a pre-warning and to tell me that there was no law in place that held anyone culpable for my son’s death. Well, that didn’t go very well down with me.

I’m sure.

And so, I educated myself. I went out. I got myself a certificate for in WHS so that I could understand the law and then tackle the government. And what I mean, I I called the government. I went in hard, and I fought for five years for industrial manslaughter to be introduced in our state of New South Wales. Every state started to get it in through all the tragedies that have been happening and the advocacy that laws in our WHS law needed to be changed so that people are held culpably. Because if I kill someone in a car, I go to jail. In Australian laws, we go to jail. There are no ifs, no buts. If your fault or not, if I kill someone on the streets, I go to jail. But if you killed someone at work, there was no penalties, none. There’s just a penalty for the organization. At the time, the highest penalty was $3 million. So, introducing industrial manoeuvrer, not only did we increase those penalties to $25 million for a category one offense, but also 20 years for people who are workers who are responsible for someone’s death, which brings in consequences when something isn’t right.

And when deliberate needs are done. And when you ignore it.

Yes. Yes. When you foresee a problem and you speak up and nothing is done about it, you are responsible for that person dying. No one goes to work intending on dying But no one also goes to work intending on killing someone either. But unless we put these consequences in place and let people understand that we all are responsible for safety, every single one of us, management to CEOs, to builders, to the actual workers. We are all responsible for safety, and we all need to work together. So yes, our laws did change. It took me a while to fight them, but these consequences needed to be put in place to stop people from doing the wrong thing because they just had to get the job done. Right.

And Patricia, if somebody wants to get in touch with you, would be interested in hearing about having you present to the organization, what’s the best way for them to reach out to you?

They can go on to my website Our website, which is https://www.letstalkaboutsafety.com.au/ That’s https://www.letstalkaboutsafety.com.au/ or they can also email me, which is [email protected]. I’m very easily found on LinkedIn as well. Just my name and touched by Christopher. If they Google my name Patrizia Cassaniti. I’m very much, very easily found on social media with LinkedIn as well.

Excellent. Thank you so much for joining me today to record this episode, for sharing Christopher’s story, as painful as it is to talk through. I really appreciate the time you took.

No, thank you for having me. And thank you for thinking of me to be on your podcast. So much appreciated. Absolutely.

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