Real leaders leave a legacy. They capture the hearts and minds of their teams. Their origin story puts the safety and well-being of their people first. Great companies ubiquitously have safe, yet productive operations. For those companies, safety is an investment, not a cost for the C-suite. It’s a real topic of daily focus. This is the Safety Guru with your host, Eric Michrowski, a globally recognized ops and safety guru, public speaker and author. Are you ready to leave a safety legacy? Your legacy success story begins now.

Hi, and welcome to the Safety Guru. Today, I’m very excited to have with me, Mark Stanway. He’s a freelance site manager. He’s also a motivational speaker on safety. He has some very powerful stories and examples to share with us, particularly around risk identification, risk assessments, and job sites. Mark, welcome to the show. I’m very excited to have you with me today.

Hi, nice to meet you, Eric. Nice to be invited on to the show.

Excellent. Maybe let’s start with your accident that happened. If you can reshare the story you shared with me originally, I think it was a very, very powerful story.

I was working off a scaffold fitting to a roof that we were refurbishing on a building in the center of Tot-mouth in a busy shopping area. I’d arrived on site the day before at approximately 8:30, having traveled for roughly three and a half hours. When I arrived on site, I a gang of subcontract roofers who I’d worked with before. They’d arrived on site at the start of the week. We were all subcontracting to the same roofing company. When I arrived on site, there was no site representative or site supervisor for the roofing company on site. There was no site office. There was nowhere to sign in or sign out. There was nowhere for site inductions to take place, nor was I site inducted. There were no RAMs for me to sign up to. There were no welfare facilities. On first inspection of the work area, I could see that the scaffold had been erected too high for me to fit the new Soffit board. I contacted the Contracts Manager for the roofing company. I’d known him for over 30 years. He answered the phone unbeknown to me he was on holiday abroad. I explained to him all the issues I had with fitting the Soffit board, and I said to him, if I removed certain scaffold boards, I would be able to gain access to fit the new Soffit board.

He asked me to proceed. Why is it as tradespeople, instead of refusing to do the work, we try to find ways to get the work done, often compromising our own health and safety, but even worse, compromising the health and safety of others. The access to the scaffold was from a balcony area. This balcony area was used by the public to access some flats and small businesses on this level. The ladders to the scaffold were situated in such a way as to wedge the scaffold gate in a permanently open position. The balcony area that the ladder sat on was covered in tiles. The tiles had a raised disk pattern for extra grip, but this raised disk pattern wasn’t noticeable as the whole area was covered in lichen. Lichen is an organic substance which is incredibly slippery when wet, a fact that I did not know. Had I known that fact, I might have checked that the ladders were secured to the scaffold, but I didn’t. It was part of the site supervisor’s daily pre-start checks to check that the ladders were secured to the scaffold. But that does not excuse operators from checking as well. We all have a duty.

Sure. When I first went up the ladders, for some reason, I looked down and I could see the metal handrail balcony below me. Further below that was a flat roof, and even further below that was a small concrete backyard, which is part of an emergency exit route for the premises below. I thought to myself, that looks a nasty form. But this messed the thought from my head and carried on. A few hours later, the site supervisor for the roofing company arrived on site. I said to him all the issues that I had with fitting the soffit board, but he showed no interest. He was more concerned about trying to source a generator for the hoist for the subcontract roofers. On the day of the accident, the weather was overcast. I contacted the with the project manager first thing in the morning as I needed to remove quite a few scaffold boards from the gable end of the building in order to fit the soffit. The subcontract roofers and the site supervisor for the roofing company were involved in the conversation. I as it would mean restricting access to this area. I was told to proceed.

At around nine o’clock, the weather changed, and it started to slightly rain. The subcontract roofers decided to go for an early breakfast, believing the weather would blow over. Before they went for their early breakfast, they asked me if I could start to fit the fascia board to one elevation so that they could complete their roof edge detail on their return. I stopped what I was doing and started to fit the fascia board. The rain became more persistent, so I decided to do some work at ground floor level. As I went to exit the scaffold, the next thing I remember was my father-in-law, crunching over me, saying, Mark, you can’t go. You’ve got to look after Debbie and the children, Debbie being my wife and my five children, Harriet, Georgina, Harvey, Millie, and Pip. But my father-in-law had died the year before. Perhaps I was about to die. I suddenly became aware of people around me and my clothes being cut off. This was the paramedics attending to me. This would have been approximately an hour after I had fallen. What had happened was, as I went to step onto the ladders, the ladder slipped, causing my body to partially cartwheel.

I fell approximately four and a half meters onto the metal handrail, impacting on the left side of my upper body, just under my arm pit. The impact caused ribs three, two, and three to explode, three and four to explode, fractured my shoulder blade and caused my left lung to start bleeding. As the impact continued, fracturing rib two, causing nerve and soft tissue damage, fracturing my collarbone. My neck then followed the impact, cushioned by my shoulder, followed by my head. My head being sliced open on the side, dislodging crystals in my left ear and causing a possible brain trauma. As the rest of my upper body impacted the handrail, ribs five, six, and seven, impacting at the side and where they joined the spine, my internal organs being squashed, my lung had suffered further damage, damage to my spleen, pushing my stomach up into my chest wall, trauma to my spine, further nerve and soft tissue damage. The rest of my body followed, and the unbalanced weight tried to roll me off the handrail, but the handrail was wet firmly under my left shoulder, and my left shoulder was now started to be torn off. The joint between the collarbone and sternum was starting to be torn apart, and the sternum itself has started to be twisted and distorted within the chest wall.

Somehow my shoulder freed itself, but further trauma was caused to my left arm. I fell just over a meter onto the edge of the flat roof, impacting on the right side of my body, fracturing rib eight on the right side and causing trauma to my large intestine. I then fell a further three and a half meters headfirst onto the concrete ground, impacting the concrete ground headfirst with the right side of my head, causing trauma to the right side of my head, possible brain trauma, dislodging crystals in my right ear, trauma to my neck, trauma to my right-hand. The accident had been witnessed by a dental technician, whose premises was some eight meters away from the scaffolded access point. They’d been alerted to the fall by the noise of the ladder sliding and the impact of my body on the handrail. They quickly told their colleague what had happened and then went to site to tell them. Their colleague, who was first trained, went to attend to me, but there was no direct access. She had to go down to the market square, out of the market square to the high street, down the high street to a cafe, into the cafe, through the cafe into their kitchen, to the kitchen area, through the kitchen area to the emergency exit area, to where I lay on the concrete ground.

The site supervisor for the roofing company, on learning what had happened, went to the balcony area, could see that the ladders had slipped, decided to push the ladders back up and secure them, and put all the scaffold board in that morning. The police had called for detectives to come to the scene as they believed my accident was going to result in a fatality. They called in the balcony area off and they asked who was in charge. The site supervisor for the roofing company said he was. They asked what had happened. He said that I’d fallen off the ladders, but they could see the skid marks on the ground that the ladders had made when they took their bath, asked further questions. The site supervisor eventually admitted what he had done and was subsequently arrested.

Wow. That’s incredible. One that you’re still alive from a fall of that height, but also all the attempt to cover up what had occurred.

It gets worse with the cover up because the company itself then went to the site before the HSE got there, and they started interfering with the scene. They changed the documentation. They removed the site supervisor as the person in charge and tried to shift all the blame to the roofers. There was an awful lot of deceit that went on instead of just honesty, which is terrible, really, because nothing gets learned on the accident. It doesn’t make you feel very good as a person because it makes you feel worthless.

So, your accident, tortuosity events, Tell me a little bit about the journey after because you got to the hospital, the impact from your life standpoint, but also the impact on your family.

I was taken to hospital via a helicopter. I don’t remember much of being in the hospital, as I first arriving in the hospital. So, I was drifting in and out of consciousness. The local place where I lived, I’d gone round to our house to tell my wife in person what had happened, as they believed I was going to be a fatality. Unfortunately, my wife wasn’t at home. She was in Ludlow, which is some 10 miles away from where we lived. The police had to ring my wife up. My wife received the phone call, and they said, hello, this is Lempster police. Your husband has had an accident at work. He’s been airlifted to hospital. We don’t have any further information. My wife started to shake from head to in shock, but I was over 200 miles away, and all she wanted to do was to see me. Stress, the strain, the anxiety my wife was feeling at that particular moment. She was unable to come to me straight away because we had three of our children at different schools within a 10-mile radius. One of our daughters was traveling back from the university at that particular point.

Our eldest daughter lived some four and a half hours away, and both sets of parents lived 60 miles away. She contacted my mother and asked my mother to contact the hospital, and my wife spoke to me later that day. She arrived at the hospital the following day with three of our children. That was Georgina, Millie, and Pip. Pip being our youngest daughter, who was only nine years old at the time of the accident. When Pip saw me in the hospital bed, battered and bruised with a mask on my face, she had a massive panic attack, and her mom had to take her out of the to try to calm her down. The day before, when my wife had told her what had happened, she stopped uncontrollably. She was very, very upset. She eventually managed to get her back into the hospital to see me. I told my wife for the events. Initially, the hospital was going to operate on me and reconstruct my rib cage. Without this operation, I would suffer a lifetime of pain. But after a few days, they decided not to operate and just wanted to send me home. I was on a machine that would self-administer morphine by the push of a button.

They made several attempts to try to take me off this machine, all of which failed. But despite this, they sent me home on the ninth of July, seven days after my accident. They sent me home with insufficient pain medication, no follow-up appointment, a letter to my doctor stating that I had multiple rib fractures and a damaged left lung, and no further medical advice. I’ll always remember the nurse that gave me that letter and the pain medication, the look of concern on her face as though she knew something that I didn’t. Were they sending me home to die? I had more than multiple rib fractures. I had a flail chest, the danger of which is it can compromise your breathing, and you can die. The hospital had failed to recognize other injuries that I sustained. Despite my complaints of pain, they chose not to investigate. On the day of my discharge, the ninth of July, at 12:35, they had a meeting regarding my discharge. My head trauma was brought up in that meeting, and they decided to put my head trauma in my discharge notice and to give me advice that should I suffer headaches, memory loss, or dizziness, to contact the emergency department straight away.

If you look at my hospital notes, all the time that I’m in there, I’m complaining of headaches. I’ll make it off. Which I’m told to expect headaches for the next 6 to 12 months. As I said, this meeting was at 12:35, but my discharge notice was printed at 12:18, so none of this information was ever entered into my discharge notice. The hospital that I was at was at the forefront of blunt thoracic trauma. That is a blunt impact to your upper those. The danger, which is you can develop pneumonia and die. They had developed a treatment chart based on a score. The score was calculated by the age of the patient, the number of rib fractures they sustained, and pain medication was considered. No matter how you calculated my school, there is no way that I should have just been sent home with no follow-up. Some years later, I would meet one of the consultants that sent me home, probably to die, and he would apologize more than once. The hospital would write a letter to me explaining that my injuries were potentially life-threatening, and for that reason, an operation would have been too intrusive.

Unfortunately, that meant I probably would suffer a lifetime of pain. Wow.

So crazy series of events even into the hospital because it’s already… You had gone through incredible fall. Was it 10 meters total in terms of the scaffolding?

It was approximately 10 meters. It’s the equivalent of falling from the top of the three-store building. That’s crazy. I mean, by right, shouldn’t have survived well.

You talked about when you started out, there were multiple events where somebody could have noticed something. In fact, I think you identified five times an opportunity that was missed that could have stopped the incident. Tell me a little bit about that and how we drive a culture, ultimately, where this doesn’t happen.

This episode of the Safety Guru podcast is brought to you by Propulo Consulting, the leading safety and safety culture advisory firm. Whether you are looking to assess your safety culture, develop strategies to level up your safety performance, introduce human performance capabilities, re-energize your BBS program, and enhance supervisory safety capabilities, or introduce unique safety leadership training and talent solutions, Propulo has you covered. Visit us at propulo.com.

That’s right, Eric. If you look, there was five opportunities missed to stop my accident from happening. I should have checked that the ladder was secured to the scaffold, but I either didn’t understand the importance of the ladder has been secured to the scaffold, but I didn’t understand the importance of the ladder’s being secured to the scaffold, or I couldn’t be They were bothered to check. The other cooperatives were using the ladders that day. Should have checked that the ladders were secured to the scaffold, they either didn’t understand the importance of the ladders being secured to the scaffold or they couldn’t be bothered. The site supervisor has a duty to supervise the work area, to review the work area, and identify hazards. Part of his pre-start daily checks were to check that the ladders were secured to the scaffold, which he didn’t do.

The ground was covered in lichen. He should have witnessed, should have observed that and dealt with it straight away. The ladders wedged the scaffold gate in a permanently open position. He should have realized that was wrong and had the ladders repositioned. The scaffolding company erected the scaffold access, not as per TG20, the ladders were wedging the scaffold gate open. They should have been at right angles to the scaffold. They should have also identified the issues with the ground covered in lichen where they were going to put the ladders. And the contract manager Instead of using site-specific ramps, used generic RAMs, failing to realize all the hazards that were around by putting the scaffold access where we did. It also had the scaffold erected without thinking about my task of fitting the new soffit board and compromising my health and safety in trying to fit the soffit board, balancing off scaffold tubes because there was no lift there for me to do it. Also, the issue, should somebody suffer an accident, getting access to them. Five opportunities missed to stop my accident from happening.

How do you make a shift from a cultural standpoint, where you’ve got multiple people that look the other way? How do you instill that impact? Obviously, sharing a story drives an impact. But tell me about a little bit in terms of how you could make a difference in that regard in terms of getting people to, as you said, either didn’t understand or couldn’t be bothered with it. How do you change that so that the right actions happen day in and day out?

Well, based on what happened to me, I developed a free-to-use app, shako.org.uk, which is all about people reviewing their work area. It’s designed for supervisors to review the work area. But the objective is everybody needs to review their work area to identify the hazards and to ensure there are control measures in place. If you have a hazard and you can’t eliminate the hazard, then there’s always the potential that hazard could turn into an accident. You have a control measure in place, but it doesn’t stop the potential of that hazard becoming an accident. And that’s what people need to do is to stop, stand back, look at their work area, identify the hazards, and to understand how the control measures need to be in place to try to stop those hazards occurring. A simple thing, if somebody using their tools and putting their tools down in a walkway, that’s obviously a trip hazard. If they think to themselves, oh, I’m going to create a trip hazard. I need to put a control measure in place, which is I’ll remove the tools from the walkway. You’ve eliminated it. And it’s getting that mentality over.

Because at the end of the day, the person most affected by my accident was my youngest daughter, Pip, who was only nine years old. Now, I’ve gone through a huge amount of trauma. I’ve been suicidal. I’ve gone through all these different events It was my choice to take a risk. But the person most affected by my accident was my youngest daughter, who suffered terribly. When I had my accident, as I said to you, that she started to sob uncontrollably. When she saw me in the hospital, she had a massive panic attack. I was eventually remitted back into hospital when I was discharged. It was on one of the days was her birthday, and she sent me a text saying, All I want for my birthday is for you to come home, Daddy. I have a picture that was taken a month before my accident of me and my daughter. It’s a lovely picture. It shows a bond between us, but it’s a bond I haven’t felt since the accident, nor do I remember before the accident. Imagine how dramatic that is for a nine-year-old girl to feel that her father doesn’t have that connection. But then it gets even worse.

For the first two years after my accident, every time I was in a room with my daughter and she would start to speak, I would just get up and leave the room. She would say to a mom, Doesn’t Daddy love me anymore? The reality was I couldn’t cope with the pitch of her voice. But how can she possibly understand that? And so, she spent over half of her life, nine more years of her life because she’s 18 now, suffering that trauma, trying to deal with the trauma from my accident. And that’s what people have to try to realize, is you may be the injured person. You may be the person that has the accident, but the ripple effect of the trauma of an accident in the workplace is devastating. And that’s why they need to review the work area, identify the hazards, and make sure control measures are in place.

And it sounds so simple, but it’s not the first time I’ve heard multiple layers like this of different people did not identify the hazard, not seeing the hazard. In some cases, you position it very well. It’s I’m either they didn’t see the hazard, or they didn’t recognize the impact, or they couldn’t be bothered. I think at the end of the day, it’s a compounding of all these pieces that leads to terrible events.

You’re quite right. The trouble is most of our health and safety is tick box. You can quite easily bypass it by tick box. I’m a freelance site manager. I give toolbox talks. If I just stop you work and give you a toolbox talk, you’ve got no interest in me. You don’t really want to listen to me. I’ve just stopped you earning your money. I’ve frustrated you, if anything. But if I walk around the site and I see you working in an unsafe manner, and then I stop you and ask why you’re working that way, and then you tell me why, and then I give you a toolbox talk explaining that way, I think that’s a better way of doing it, because then people are going to listen and learn from it. I think we do too much tick boxing, and we just need to get people to understand. The big first thing is to understand the hazards. If you can understand the hazards, you’re halfway there, and then it’s getting them to want to put the control measures in place. You have risk and method statements telling you how to do something, identifying the risks.

Now, who’s to say the person doing that risk and method statement is competent? They’ve come up with how they feel, which is a safe way of doing it. Now, if you’re a tradesman person, you say, well, I’ve always worked this way. I’ve always done things my way. Then that tradesperson needs to engage and say, well, I don’t think your risk and method statement is correct. I think you should do this. And they should have a discussion to make sure the way they’re working is safe. But at the same time as a tradesperson, before he carries out his job, he’ll be thinking, What tools do I need? What materials do I need? He’ll plan all that part. He needs to also start to plan his own health and safety. I think, oh, I need a bit of access. What access can use? I won’t stand on a book on a tin of paint. Actually, I’ll get a proper hopper, or I’ll get a small scaffold. They need to engage, and they need to want to engage. And it’s trying to get people to want to engage. That seems to be the biggest difficulty. And the only way I can really express that is to turn around and say, the ripple effects your accident will have on your family and loved ones, you can destroy their lives.

They can commit suicide from your accidents because of the trauma it’s caused them.

You said something else at the beginning of your story, I think that was quite powerful, is you said in the trades, you solve problems. There’s something around when you saw something that wasn’t right, you’re trying to find a solution to make it work. There’s also that orientation to solve because that’s what you’re doing, is solving problems day in and day out. But I think it was a very powerful statement, really, in terms of There’s a desire to find a solution as opposed to saying, not safe.

The trades people should turn around and say, It’s not safe. They should have the competence to turn around and say, I can’t do this safely. How can I do this safely? And contact somebody and say, I can’t do my job safely. If you did this, I could do it safely, as opposed to having to completely dismantle the scaffold and re-erect the scaffold. When I’m outside as a freelance site manager and I say, I’ll say to people, can you do this task for me? And they’ll say, I’m not comfortable. And I’ll say, why aren’t you comfortable with doing the task? And they’ll say, Therefore, I want a better access. It could be multiple things. And I’ll say, Okay, then. So, I’ll put that in place. Would you feel happy then? But some people will say, I’m just not comfortable doing the task. And I’ll say, That’s perfectly fine. I’ll find somebody else to do it. You must be comfortable doing the task. I appreciate the fact that you’ve turned around to me and said that you’re not comfortable. I wish more people would say that because they should do. If you’re not comfortable, don’t be forced into taking a risk.

Because the reality is my life-changing accident happened in three seconds. My daughter has lived nine years of her life in trauma from my life-changing accident. Three seconds has caused… It probably destroys her life. It’s certainly had a huge impact on her life. It’s had a huge impact on my other four children. It’s had a massive impact on my wife. Three seconds. Three seconds. It’s not worth it.

Three seconds and five opportunities to change the course. Five? Ahead of time. Yeah. I think very, very powerful story, and we’re lucky to still have you with us. Tell me a little bit about… You mentioned a tool that you’ve launched, increased that risk awareness, the risk identification, the risk assessment and job sites. Tell me a little bit more about how you’ve brought that to life.

What I was looking at was how could I possibly try to stop my accident, try to get a supervisor to realize, or for me to realize all the risks that there were, were the way that the ladders were positioned. There was the ground that was slippery, the ladders weren’t secured, the ladders were positioned incorrectly. So, there’s three opportunities there of things that were wrong straight away. I tried to understand that. I noticed if you I look at people that post pictures online of their work progress, and you actually look at the picture and start to look for hazards, all you’re looking is for hazards. There could be a control measure in place. There might not be a control measure in place. And then I started looking at photographs that people were advertising. Look at our business. And they were advertising. It’s nice action shot. It was showing work and progress and everything. But then I thought to myself, well, you’ve got hazards, and you’ve got no control measures in place. You’re saying, look at me, I want to say if we are. And then I looked back when I had my own junior company.

It’s an image I had. It was an image. It was up in Scotland, and it was a big timber frame building, a longnecks roof and everything. And I started to think but look at the hazards I’ve got on there with no control measures in place. So that’s what gave me the idea. So, my idea basically as a site supervisor on a regular basis takes a picture of their work area. It’s got to be their work area. It’s not a picture of the site. It’s not saying, oh, look at this on the side. It’s their work area. They’re trying to teach they’re fellow workers of what’s going on. To take a picture of their work area and identify five hazards. Identify the type of hazard it is. If there’s a control measure in place, they put a green thumbs up. If there’s no control measure in place, they put a red thorn down. And they put a brief description of the control measure. They do this on five occasions. If they find anything with a red thumbs down because there’s no control measure in place, they can take an action and deal with that. But they then see this as the people they are supervising in a form of a test.

It’s not a scored test. And it comes to the people that they’re supervising. They see an image of their work area with five hazards identified. When they select a hazard, it comes up with the option. It shows you the type of hazard it is, just a pictorial method, and with a green thumbs up or red thumbs down choice. And whichever they select, it doesn’t matter if they select with a green thumbs up or a red thumb down, whichever one they select, the picture then zooms in with the correct answer of whether it’s a green thumbs or red thumbs down with a brief description of the control measure. So, it could be there’s a brick in a walk. So, it’s a red thumbs down, brick and a walk, so it’s a trip hazard, remove brick. And simply by doing through pictures, because you remember 80% of what you see, compared to what I think it’s 20% of what you read. Over time, operatives to understand how their actions and inactions can create hazards and the control measures that need to be in place. The site supervisor also must take picture with five hazards in. Now, that sounds simple, but it’s not as simple as it sounds.

If you took a picture, for example, of a scaffold because you’re working off a scaffold, you’ve got a clear walkway because the platform you’re working. So therefore, the trip has it, and it’s a green thumbs up because it’s clear. You’ve got a double handrail, so that’s two falls from heights. So, there’s two more hazards, which is a reduced hazard because you’ve got the two handrails. You’ve got a tow board and a brick guard. There’s two more of materials falling off the scaffold. There are five hazards determined. If every scaffold that you went on during a working day was clear with all those pieces in place, imagine the number of accidents, potential accidents that you would stop. Because during the working day, you’ve got trip hazards all over that scaffold. You’ll have brick guards pulled off. And that’s the point I’m trying to get through is that people think, oh, something’s not right there because they’ve been learned through pictorial images. I need to do that. They feel that something’s wrong and want to adjust it. That was the idea behind it.

Which is huge because if you can get people to just find the hazards and do something about it, that’s a game changer in many cases.

It’s basically health and safety, isn’t it, really? The reality is it’s the hazard that’s causing the potential accident. If you put a control measure in place, you must have reduced the risk of an accident. Correct.

If somebody wants to more about your story or more about your tool, how can they get in touch with you, Mark?

They can contact me direct at [email protected]. But I do have a website that they can view, which is www.shakositemanagementservicesltd.com. On there, it shows all the articles I’m constantly writing on LinkedIn about various issues of health and safety. It shows a bit about my motivational speaking. It also tells me a bit about an accident, tells you about Shako. My wives also involved telling her side of the story because it’s all about a family to try to get that message across of the people who were affected by an accident in the workplace.

Because I think that’s a big part as well of recognizing, like you said, the impact is on yourself, but also on everybody around you in terms of how it impacts them, the ripple effects, so that hopefully somebody makes a safer choice, somebody stops the work, somebody recognizes and controls the hazard in the workplace. That’s correct, Eric.

That’s the main thing. It’s the other people. It’s not the injured person. I always say that I’m the injured person. I’m the person who suffered. I haven’t suffered. My head has probably lost it and I’ve changed. It’s the people around me. They are the ones who suffered. They haven’t had the trauma to the brain. They’re realizing what’s going on. It’s affected their lives.

Right. Mark, thank you so much for sharing your story to shift hearts and minds in industry around both the hazard identification inside, but also in terms of choosing to work safe, to stop something, as opposed to trying to find a patch, a solution to make the problem go away.

Thank you for having me, Eric. I appreciate that. To get my message over, that’s very good of you. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you for listening to The Safety Guru on C-suite Radio. Leave a legacy. Distinguish yourself from the past. Grow your success. Capture the hearts and minds of your teams. Elevate your safety. Like every successful athlete, top leaders continuously invest in their safety leadership with an expert coach to boost safety performance. Begin your journey at execsafetycoach.com. Come back in two weeks for the next episode with your host, Eric Michrowski. This podcast is powered by Propulo Consulting.